JF-65 12, JF-30 12, F-412, F-512: Aside From Bling, Do They Differ Much?

[timacn]

In terms of sound and playability, do the maple body Guild 12 strings (JF-65 12, JF-30 12, F-412, F-512) differ much in terms of sound, playability, and structure?

Thanks for your help. (I'm looking for a Guild 12 string.)

 

[wileypickett]

That's an awfully BIG question, one for which there is no simple answer, and no answer that's true in all cases. (Until Oxnard, the F512 was NOT even a maple guitar for instance.)

You might narrow things by limiting yoiur inquiry to guitars made in a particular factory -- Hoboken, Westerly, Tacoma, Hew Hartford, Oxnard -- where there is more likely to have been some build consistency -- though there were a LOT of variables in Westerly, because Guild operated there for so long.

Or you might limit your question to whether you're looking for something vintage or something modern.

If you're just looking for jumbo-bodied maple 12-string *recommendations*, you can get plenty of those here!

But asking for info on sound, playability and structure -- I wouldn't know where to begin.

You might try using the search function and reading up on maple 12-strings from among the archives. That should keep you busy for the next couple months!

Any other suggestions, LTGers?

 

[12 string]

I think there would be an essential similarity given they're all the same body, materials and construction. I would expect a better soundboard and prettier wood on the top of the line models. An ebony fingerboard makes for a worthy upgrade, also.

 

[timacn]

That's an awfully BIG question, one for which there is no simple answer, and no answer that's true in all cases. (Until Oxnard, the F512 was NOT even a maple guitar for instance.)

You might narrow things by limiting yoiur inquiry to guitars made in a particular factory -- Hoboken, Westerly, Tacoma, Hew Hartford, Oxnard -- where there is more likely to have been some build consistency -- though there were a LOT of variables in Westerly, because Guild operated there for so long.

Or you might limit your question to whether you're looking for something vintage or something modern.

If you're just looking for jumbo-bodied maple 12-string *recommendations*, you can get plenty of those here!

But asking for info on sound, playability and structure -- I wouldn't know where to begin.

You might try using the search function and reading up on maple 12-strings from among the archives. That should keep you busy for the next couple months!

Any other suggestions, LTGers?

Hey Wiley. Good advice for sure! I have been reading this excellent site since I decided to get a Guild 12 string. I've been asking questions about different factories, too. Given that no two guitars are the same, even those built in the same era and place, most Guild people have told me that the various F or JF models are uniformly excellent regardless of where built. I thought the 412 and 512 (maple model) were basically quite similar, and Guild Jf30-12s were very similar to the JF65-12 and other models without all the pretty bling. I should have been more specific in what I asked for, but I didn't know enough to ask the right questions! (Which is why I sent in my post in the first place.)

 

[wileypickett]

Well, I love my JF30 (Westerly) 12-strings for sure. And I can hear a difference between them and my (Westerly) JF65-12, but I'm not sure I can describe the difference. Construction-wise there's more to it than just materials, or bling versus no bling. (How the braces are treated, for instance, is a factor in sound.)

Though many prefer rosewood sides-and-back to maple, I can't imagine anyone who is remotely interested in 12-strings not loving both.

Another factor to consider is the neck profile. Twenty years or so ago, Guild began making their necks slimmer than in the past, which some people find more comfortable. (I think the change had to do with how Taylor more or less set the bar on 12 string necks. After Taylor redesigned 12-string necks, other makers, including Guild, began following their lead.)

So much has to do with how a guitar feels in your hands and how it sounds to your ear. Once you hone in on one that speaks to you, that'll give you (and us) some guideposts for further suggestions. Without reference points to begin with, it's hard to know where to start.

What experiences have you had with any 12-strings?

Where are you located? Maybe there's an LTGer near you with a bunch of 12-strings you could try out?!

 

[Rayk]

That's an awfully BIG question, one for which there is no simple answer, and no answer that's true in all cases. (Until Oxnard, the F512 was NOT even a maple guitar for instance.)

You might narrow things by limiting yoiur inquiry to guitars made in a particular factory -- Hoboken, Westerly, Tacoma, Hew Hartford, Oxnard -- where there is more likely to have been some build consistency -- though there were a LOT of variables in Westerly, because Guild operated there for so long.

Or you might limit your question to whether you're looking for something vintage or something modern.

If you're just looking for jumbo-bodied maple 12-string *recommendations*, you can get plenty of those here!

But asking for info on sound, playability and structure -- I wouldn't know where to begin.

You might try using the search function and reading up on maple 12-strings from among the archives. That should keep you busy for the next couple months!

Any other suggestions, LTGers?

Nicely said Wiley

All I can add my point of view which is every guitar will be different ! Model A and B are the same guitar on the production line being built one after the other. They will/can sound different . Some might be to hard to tell . Each layer of wood whether it comes from the same section of the tree or a piece 2 ft higher will offer different tonal responses.

the build has everything to do with differences. Like one westerly compared to a New Hartford .

the feel can can change to between like guitars . At least that’s been my experience. Don’t ask me why they just do . It could be the subtle differences between the neck shape or thickness if there hand shaped . Nut width also can very a wee bit and that will change the feel along with slight body changes like width and depth the can vary from one guitar to the next.
If everything is the same body wood same neck wood but one having a Ebony bridge and fingerboard vrs Rosewood that would change the feel and tone as well .

if your experienced with the tonal differences of different guitars you be able to pick a certain one out of the pack to be your one , others like me and many here even you can hear the differences in tone and appreciate them we can utilize those instruments along side other’s .

Best way is to play them if possible maybe the JF30 will sound better , feel better then a F512m to you ?
It’s a great journey to go through the process.
Enjoy

 

[timacn]

Hi Wiley. More good information! (Thanks.) I've always liked 12 strings but only have ever owned one, a Taylor 355. Back when I bought it, a comparison in a guitar magazine gave it a good rating, along with a Guild F-212. A prominent luthier (forget where) said that the Taylor, with a removable neck, would be easier to work on when the inevitable neck reset was needed and he told me to buy the Taylor. It sounds great, but it does not have that explosion of sound that a Guild has. It's very hard to find a Guild 12 string to play in real time, and with the covid stuff, it's even more difficult. So as is true with many instrument "auditions" these days, you have to do the evaluations virtually. Reading articles online, listening to youtube reviews, and checking out knowledgeable people on sites like this one. Thanks again for your valuable insights and advice.

 

[wileypickett]

My experience was somewhat similar to yours. My main 12-string was a Taylor LKSM jumbo body. (I still have it.) Fifteen years or so ago, someone on my local Craigslist put up an ad for a Guild JF30 12-string. They priced it at a grand, and kept dropping the price by 100 bucks every week it didn't sell.

When the price got down into the "how can I NOT at least go check it out" range, I did just that. I was so sure I wasn't going to actually buy it, I didn't even bother getting money out of my bank before I went. (I was just "educating myself"!)

Well, I was floored by how good it sounded, enough so that I put some cash down to hold the guitar, and brought the balance back the next night.

That started me down the Guild rabbit hole!

I buy and sell guitars fairly often, but I still have that original JF30 12-string -- and at least seven or eight other Guild jumbo body 12-strings.

 

[SFIV1967]

The mentioned 4 guitars (JF-65 12, JF-30 12, F-412, F-512) are not all in the same league. (I understood you asked about the maple body versions here, but let me give you a bit of historical rundown:

Originally the high end 12 string Jumbos were:
F-412: Laminated arched back maple body
F-512: solid rosewood flat back body (with few vintage exeptions...)

"JF-65 12": Now there are multiple!

With the Jan 15, 1987 price list the F-412 was renamed into JF-65M-12 !
And the F-512 was renamed into JF-65R-12 but disappeared from the June 1987 pricelist...Like they never planned to continue the former F-512.
At that time the JF-65M-12 was simply renamed JF-65/12.

Now the JF-30-12 was a much lower priced no bling guitar introduced 1987.
(1987 list price $925 vs $1,595 for the JF-65M-12 and $1,650 for the JF-65R-12)
A nice and very popular guitar (I think) nevertheless!

Now with the Jan 15, 1992 price list all was changed again...!
The former F-412 = JF-65M-12=JF-65-12 was suddently renamed into JF-55-12 !
And the former F-512=JF-65R-12 was renamed JF-65-12! (now rosewood!)
Confusing, isn't it? Typical Guild however... But wrong in that case, see 1993 pricelist below!
And the top of the line JF-100-12 was added.

EDIT: As Al pointed out that was obvioulsy an error in the 1992 pricelist, as the Apr 1, 1993 pricelist now showed:

So indeed the former maple F-412 = JF-65M-12=JF-65-12 was not supposed to be a JF-55-12 but stayed as JF-65-12.
And the former rosewood F-512=JF-65R-12 was also not supposed to be a pure JF-65-12 but a JF-55-12.

That is how it stayed for almost 10 years until the end of Westerly in 2001.

When production started 2002 in Corona, the JF-65-12 was named back to F-412 and JF-55-12 to F-512.
The JF-30-12 was however continued for a short time in Corona until 2003.

And in 2019 CMG marketing decided to rename the well known F-412 into "F-512 Maple"...
So the story of renaming those guitars continues in good old Guild tradition... Means currently Guild offers both a "F-512 Maple" and the F-512 (Rosewood).

Ralf

 

[Pike]

I have owned and loved 12 stringers. Best sounding one I ever came across was a Takamine hanging in a pawn shop. Went back to get and, you guessed it, it was gone.

 

[fronobulax]

when the inevitable neck reset was needed

Gotta say that the inevitability of a neck reset is a matter of opinion and debate. Some folks believe it is an inherent feature of the design and that a neck reset is routine maintenance. If you can't afford it or don't want to deal with it then sell it before it is needed. Others believe it is possible to engineer and build an instrument that can remain tuned at concert pitch for the lifetime of the instrument and not need a reset. There are also those who believe a reset is inevitable but not necessarily during the lifetime of the original purchaser. Martin recently changed their warranty policy concerning neck resets which may or may not be of interest in this discussion.

We have discussed this before and doing it again will not bring any resolution but I will ask why does the potential for a reset matter to you? Is it something you cannot afford now? Is it something you fear you cannot afford in the future and so hope to avoid by making the right decision now? Are you afraid you won't find a competent luthier when the time comes?

I realize you are trying to narrow down your choices at a time when it is hard to actually inspect instruments in person but I'm thinking, inevitable or not, neck reset possibilities are irrelevant unless the specific instrument you are looking at needs a reset and would be The One if it didn't. Then your budget and luthier are factors, but otherwise?

 

[Aarfy]

Frono - I guess my question is what is a lifetime of an instrument? If the neck needs rest eventually does that render it at its end (can’t hold pitch, difficult to play etc?) no opinion here - just curious on your thoughts!

 

[fronobulax]

Frono - I guess my question is what is a lifetime of an instrument? If the neck needs rest eventually does that render it at its end (can’t hold pitch, difficult to play etc?) no opinion here - just curious on your thoughts!

My opinion, which is not worth anything, is that an instrument that does not last at least 50 years was of inferior materials and construction to begin with and/or not maintained. I think the "disposable culture" comes into play - at what point does the cost to repair exceed the expected value after repair? But is that because of the instrument or the economic situation of the person making the decision?

I sometimes report how much I enjoyed a concert in a small venue that included a pre-war Martin. The punch line is that it was a pre-American Civil War Martin and still gig worthy circa 150 years later.

If you look at wooden instruments in general there are lots of violins and cellos that are a couple centuries old and still being played, the Stradivarius instruments being most famous.

 

[Aarfy]

The disposable culture *chef’s kiss* very true!

 

[wileypickett]

It’s a balancing act and has little to do with “disposable culture” IMO.

The lighter the build, the more likely a guitar is to need a neck reset “sooner” (whatever that means) than later; the heavier the build, the more likely it is to last longer without the need for a neck reset.

Warranties play very much into this. That's why Guild went to a heavier build in Westerly; too many guitars were coming back for free repair under warranty when they were building them light.

The trick was / is to find that sweet spot between sounding great and being built to last longer.

(I don’t mean to imply that Guild’s heavier built guitars sound worse than the lighter builds, though there are some folks here who feel strongly that that is the case. I’ve owned guitars from Hoboken and Westerly, and in my experience great sounding guitars came from both locations.)

There is a boutique guitar maker who warranties his guitars for just 20 years. He builds ‘em super light, doesn’t expect them to last longer than that, but says they’ll sound positively amazing for as long as they last.

Neck resets, though one of the more expensive repairs, aren’t all *that* expensive. Of the many dozen (100 or more?) guitars I've owned since my dad bought me my Harmony 167 at age 14 (all but two of them bought used, BTW) I had a neck reset done just once, and it was this year.

I consider it part of general maintenance, and nothing to be feared.

BTW, I’ll bet that Civil War-era Martin has seen a lot of maintenance over the years in order to remain playable! (There are Model Ts still on the road too, but it takes commitment and investment to keep them roadworthy.)

People are funny about guitars. Very few people expect to sell their car for what they paid for it, 20 or 30 years and however many miles later.

Yet there are many people who won’t buy a guitar unless they feel certain they can sell it for the same price they paid, or more.

I view guitars mainly as tools. I maintain them so they’ll function optimally, but whatever they eventually sell for is gravy; I’ve gotten the value I want from them in the days, weeks, months, years I’ve spent playing them.

 

[adorshki]

Now with the Jan 15, 1992 price list all was changed again...!
The former F-412 = JF-65M-12=JF-65-12 was renamed into JF-55-12 !
And the former F-512=JF-65R-12 was renamed JF-65-12! (now rosewood!)

That is how it stayed for almost 10 years until the end of Westerly in 2001.

With due respect sir, I think you goofed.

Are you sure that '92 list isn't in error?

I thought JF55-12 was always rosewood, JF 65-12 was always maple, and it was the JF65R and JF65R-12 which became the JF55 and JF55-12 respectively. What I remember is, JF65 was always maple except for that very short period when there was a JF65R, which technically is a different model anyway, just like the F50R was the rosewood version of the F50.

JF55 always meant rosewood.

All the price lists I checked show that, beginning with the 'June '89 list:

I don't think I've ever seen a rosewood JF65-12

'92 catalog pages show JF65-12 as maple and the JF55-12 as rosewood:

To be fair, I recall several mentions of early labeling/model number confusion in that series as the new numbers were instituted.

The s/n lists tell an interesting story, even showing "JF50" and "JF50/12" and JF65"M" and JF65"R", and "JF65/12" and "JF65R/12" in 1987 only, before things appeared to "settle down". By the '91 list, we had the JF55 and JF55-12 and JF65-12 although it looks like the JF65 (former F50) s/n's aren't available, even though it shows up in the '97 catalog:

Anyway, just some clarification for timacn.

With respect to JF30-12's, there've been slight spec changes over the years, but after the "Bling", the biggest differences between it and the JF65-12 are top grade and fretboard. JF65-12's were always AAA tops, but JF30-12's were AA, on the '01 price list, at least.

That list also shows 'em having an ebony fretboard although early models got rosewood.
Fretboard material does have a subtle effect on tone, with ebony having a "brighter" rep than rosewood.

As 12-string said topwood would be expected to be "prettier" on the JF65-12 than the 30 as grading is largely cosmetic, but there is also a school that believes the tighter more consistent grain associated with "AAA" tops makes for better resonance too.

Having one of all 3 grades, I can't really tell a difference, myself, but I think it's because Guild's topwoods were just that good, regardless of grade.

In Westerly in particular, specs got changed "on the fly" and weren't always noted in the lit or price list. Early JF30-12's show scalloped (top of the line) bracing for example, but later price lists and catalogs don't mention bracing types.

Overall, over the years, my recollection of owner feedback is that JF30-12's have always represented a very good bang for the buck if you don't necessarily want the the bling, and maybe even a better "value" than the JF65-12.

 

[Rayk]

Can’t go wrong with NH F 212 that’s the only model I played . Mine is a F212XLCE and it sounds amazing rich and full great sustain and good overtones . The Honduras Mahogany keeps it all in check and we’ll balanced .

 

[Aarfy]

Gah 212s - I had one I was eyeing but the seller didn’t have a clue - it’s been up for at least 6 months and has moved from being expensive for needing a bridge adjustment to very expensive now needing a neck reset !

 

[Aarfy]

For clarity it is a late 70s early 80s F212XL...

 

[Westerly Wood]

For clarity it is a late 70s early 80s F212XL...

those are terrific.
i had a '73 F212XL for several months but had blown out my left wrist again and needed a cleaning out of cartilage surgery so that wide neck had to go lol...