Intonation, Compensated Saddles, and String Guage

[lpa53]

Clark, you find this an interesting read

http://www.earvana.com/technology2.htm

And here's a very interesting series of articles I just found on guitar intonation by luthier Mike Doolin, which addresses both saddle and nut compensation (he believes both may be required). A bit hard to understand if you rush through it but you can pick up some great tuning tips. And, by the way, you come away realizing that it'll never be "perfectly" in tune (so don't "fret" so much?).

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation1.html

I signed up for email updates and may ask him what he thinks about Earvana.

 

[lpa53]

Clark, you find this an interesting read

http://www.earvana.com/technology2.htm

And here's a very interesting series of articles I just found on guitar intonation by luthier Mike Doolin, which addresses both saddle and nut compensation (he believes both may be required). A bit hard to understand if you rush through it but you can pick up some great tuning tips. And, by the way, you come away realizing that it'll never be "perfectly" in tune (so don't "fret" so much?).

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation1.html

I signed up for email updates and may ask him outright what he thinks about Earvana.

 

[chazmo]

A compensated saddle is one of the advantages of a new Guild. The intonation on my F512 is pretty good as a result.

Yes, you can compensate on one of the thinner, older saddles, but clearly not as much as if you have more surface to work with.

Don't know anything about the nut product mentioned earlier.

 

[lpa53]

I just got an email response from Graphtech about a compensated saddle for my D-50. They said that the PQ-9280-C0 TUSQ should work on it.

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=204&CurrencyID=2

Anyone have any experience with a saddle such as this on a '74 D-50? I'm at work but I think that the original saddle is thinner than this saddles .128" width.

 

[john_kidder]

you come away realizing that it'll never be "perfectly" in tune (so don't "fret" so much?)

Even with compensated saddles and nuts and help from onlooking angels, no guitar can ever be perfectly in tune. The problem stems from the even-tempered scale, not from the mechanics of the instrument. That's why when you tune using harmonics things are just not quite right, when you tune with an electronic tuner you still need to make that final little tweak by ear, etc.

See, for example, Equal Temperament,

or, (for a excursion ever so slightly more odd), Tunings for 19 Tone Equal Tempered Guitar

 

[lpa53]

you come away realizing that it'll never be "perfectly" in tune (so don't "fret" so much?)

Even with compensated saddles and nuts and help from onlooking angels, no guitar can ever be perfectly in tune. The problem stems from the even-tempered scale, not from the mechanics of the instrument. That's why when you tune using harmonics things are just not quite right, when you tune with an electronic tuner you still need to make that final little tweak by ear, etc.

See, for example, Equal Temperament,

or, (for a excursion ever so slightly more odd), Tunings for 19 Tone Equal Tempered Guitar

I'll take a look at the articles you linked. In one section of the article to which I linked it was mentioned that some guitar makers have tried with odd contraptions to to get away from the ET idea but had to actually make special fretboards with staggered frets for each key!

 

[GardMan]

I just got an email response from Graphtech about a compensated saddle for my D-50. They said that the PQ-9280-C0 TUSQ should work on it.

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=204&CurrencyID=2

Anyone have any experience with a saddle such as this on a '74 D-50? I'm at work but I think that the original saddle is thinner than this saddles .128" width.

Ipa53,
All of my Westerly-made Dreads from the 70s-90s have had 3/32" saddles. 0.128 is 1/8" (4/32), so that one wouldn't likely fit your older D-50 (I think the Tacoma-built D-50s do have 1/8" saddles) w/o modifying the slot.

I think this one would fit your D-50, tho' it may not give you as much room for compensating:
http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=194&CurrencyID=2
I have used the "Martin style" uncompensated 3/32" Tusqs in a couple of my dreads... still have one in my G-37... w/o having to enlarge the saddle slot. But have been slowly having them changed over to compensated bone (as compensated as you can get in 3/32") by my local luthier.

 

[lpa53]

I just got an email response from Graphtech about a compensated saddle for my D-50. They said that the PQ-9280-C0 TUSQ should work on it.

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=204&CurrencyID=2

Anyone have any experience with a saddle such as this on a '74 D-50? I'm at work but I think that the original saddle is thinner than this saddles .128" width.

Ipa53,
All of my Wesetrly-made Dreads from the 70s-90s have had 3/32" saddles. 0.128 is 1/8" (4/32), so that one wouldn't likely fit your older D-50 (I think the Tacoma-built D-50s do have 1/8" saddles) w/o modifying the slot.

I think this one would fit your D-50, tho' it may not give you as much room for compensating:
http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=194&CurrencyID=2
I have used the "Martin style" uncompensated 3/32" Tusqs in a couple of my dreads... still have one in my G-37... w/o having to enlarge the saddle slot. But have been slowly having them changed over to compensated bone (as compensated as you can get in 3/32") by my local luthier.

I looked at my D-50 tonight and agree with you. The GT person must've been thinking of the new models as my old saddle is thin. My local shop said they can try to file mine a bit to see if we can improve it a bit and I'll probably go that route for now. It's really just the B that bothers me and it's not all that bad as it is. I've just got a picky ear.

Does your luthier compensate more than just the B?

 

[Scratch]

you come away realizing that it'll never be "perfectly" in tune (so don't "fret" so much?)

Even with compensated saddles and nuts and help from onlooking angels, no guitar can ever be perfectly in tune. The problem stems from the even-tempered scale, not from the mechanics of the instrument. That's why when you tune using harmonics things are just not quite right, when you tune with an electronic tuner you still need to make that final little tweak by ear, etc.

See, for example, Equal Temperament,

or, (for a excursion ever so slightly more odd), Tunings for 19 Tone Equal Tempered Guitar

Appreciate the input, John. I thought it was me all this time. I'm always tweeking the gits and especially the 12ers.

 

[GardMan]

[Does your luthier compensate more than just the B?

Here's a shot of the saddle Tom made for my D-46 (not the best shot... it really was to show off my Orth custom pins):

Starting with the high E, it ramps back sharply to the B, then jogs forward to the G, and gradually ramps back some to the low E. It's not perfect, but it helped a lot. Looks a lot like the 7th pic down in this article: http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html

The Tusq saddle blank appears to be a little wider in the treble region (only at the top), giving more room for compensating than you can get from a 3/32" blank. Somewhere, I read of someone gluing a bone shelf onto a 3/32" saddle blank, giving more room for compensating (at the time, I was surprised that the glued shelf could sustain the pressure from the strings... but apparently, it did work).

Those web articles (tho' a bit baffling in places) made me realize that it's OK.. in fact, normal... for my guitars to need a tuning touch up when I capo up a couple frets. In fact, it reinforced something I had sort of figured out... I get better sounding results tuning with my capo on the 1st or 2nd fret (even when then playing open), than I do when I tune open, and subsequently capo up a couple.

 

[lpa53]

Ipa53,
All of my Westerly-made Dreads from the 70s-90s have had 3/32" saddles. 0.128 is 1/8" (4/32), so that one wouldn't likely fit your older D-50 (I think the Tacoma-built D-50s do have 1/8" saddles) w/o modifying the slot.

I think this one would fit your D-50, tho' it may not give you as much room for compensating:
http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?ProductID=194&CurrencyID=2
I have used the "Martin style" uncompensated 3/32" Tusqs in a couple of my dreads... still have one in my G-37... w/o having to enlarge the saddle slot. But have been slowly having them changed over to compensated bone (as compensated as you can get in 3/32") by my local luthier.

Thanks much for the link. It looks like that will suit much better for a start.

 

[lpa53]

Here's a shot of the saddle Tom made for my D-46 (not the best shot... it really was to show off my Orth custom pins):

Starting with the high E, it ramps back sharply to the B, then jogs forward to the G, and gradually ramps back some to the low E. It's not perfect, but it helped a lot. Looks a lot like the 7th pic down in this article: http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html

This article is now in my Favorites. I sure am learning a lot on this forum.

 

[lpa53]

I just got my Guild back from the luthier today. He re-crowned and leveled the frets, re-attached the bridge (it had just started to lift up ever so slightly) and widened the saddle groove to have room for a well-compensated saddle. I'd tried to do the latter myself within the original thin slot but with rather mixed results.

The tone now is better than with my makeshift saddle and some of that could be due to the bridge being more solidly in place. While playing tonight I imagined I felt a tingling buzzing where it sat on my leg, something I hadn't felt before - so perhaps it's vibrating better with the bridge more firmly attached.

The re-do of the frets helped with the sitar sound some strings were yielding at certain positions and to further help this he reduced the depth of the bridge at the pins to allow a greater break angle for the strings coming off the saddle. He said he'd always thought that these bridges were a bit too high. It wasn't inexpensive but I'm glad I got it done.

Now for some snazzier pins as these are the originals. Any recommendations?

 

[chazmo]

Pins... I really like sort of coffee-colored bone. Maybe with an abalone dot, but I'd probably go without.

I haven't done this myself, but Bob Colosi gets a solid play over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. You might also check with dklsplace (Don) here on LTG.

 

[lpa53]

Pins... I really like sort of coffee-colored bone. Maybe with an abalone dot, but I'd probably go without.

I haven't done this myself, but Bob Colosi gets a solid play over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. You might also check with dklsplace (Don) here on LTG.

I checkecd Bob;s site and noticed the Vintage Dyed bone pins and thought they looked great. But I wonder if they'd look out of place with the white saddle and the ebony bridge.

And for my 74 D50, what size pins would I order from Bob? I don't have a caliper to measure the originals I have.

 

[chazmo]

Yeah, interesting point about the ebony and white saddle, but I think they would still look good! Snakewood might be better (darker, but not black). I think ebony pins, like what Taylor does on ebony bridges, is fine but kind of boring.

You'll probably have to measure them, lpa. From what I've heard, these things varied in size over the years, and that's the safest bet. Just borrow a micrometer from someone.

 

[GardMan]

Black horn with 4 mm gold pearl dots by Gordon Orth...

Got these to match the ebony bridge/black pick guard/goldish pearloid headstock inlay on my D-46... think they'd look real noice on a comparably trimmed D-50.