Interesting custom George Barnes alike Guild at Lark Street!

gilded

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Late last night, I was doing a search for something completely different (non-Guild!) and saw that on Lark's list. Very interesting, but I didn't see a $$ amount!
 

capnjuan

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gilded said:
I was doing a search for something completely different (non-Guild) and saw that on Lark's list. Very interesting, but I didn't see a $$ amount!
Hi Harry; you know the old saying; if you have to ask ... :wink: What's with the zero fret? J
 

dogman

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Nice looking George Barnes. Just got off the phone with Lark Street. They siad more than $5000.00 but less than $20,000.00. They will post a price by Monday. Start saving your money now.
 

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It's probably the "Guitar in F". IIRC, George wanted it to play the sax role in guitar orchestras.
It was a Barnes model where the body was smaller and the scale might have been shorter too. :?:
 

hansmoust

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Walter Broes said:
Looks like it has a smaller body than the "standard" George Barnes

Default said:
It's probably the "Guitar in F". IIRC, George wanted it to play the sax role in guitar orchestras. It was a Barnes model where the body was smaller and the scale might have been shorter too.

Hello everybody,

This is a 'Custom Made' guitar I had heard of but never actually seen it. It's slightly smaller than a regular 17" George Barnes AcoustiLectric, but it is not as small as one of those 'Guitar in F' models, which were about 14" wide across the lower bout. Unlike the 'Guitar in F' it also had a normal scale length. Really cool piece!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

kakerlak

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hansmoust said:
Walter Broes said:
Looks like it has a smaller body than the "standard" George Barnes

Default said:
It's probably the "Guitar in F". IIRC, George wanted it to play the sax role in guitar orchestras. It was a Barnes model where the body was smaller and the scale might have been shorter too.

Hello everybody,

This is a 'Custom Made' guitar I had heard of but never actually seen it. It's slightly smaller than a regular 17" George Barnes AcoustiLectric, but it is not as small as one of those 'Guitar in F' models, which were about 14" wide across the lower bout. Unlike the 'Guitar in F' it also had a normal scale length. Really cool piece!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

It is a really cool piece! I have 3 questions, though:

1. What's up w/ the folk art skill level of the headstock engraving? If I'd custom ordered something and it showed up that way, I'd be sending it back...

2. The pickguard cutouts for the pickups are awfully big and don't line up with them very well either. Is there some funny business there or would this pickguard somehow fit a "regular" GB AE a little closer?

3. This thing looks disgustingly dingy. Is there a reason a dealer wouldn't bother cleaning up a guitar they plan to sell at "more than $5k and less htan $20k?!"

That aside, it is super cool and I think the proportions are more elegant than the full size AEs', too. Something about the bigger ones makes the lack of F-holes look weird, but it works here like it does on an M75. Sucker sure has been played a lot, so at least you know it's probably a real winner.
 

Guilderagain

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kakerlak said:
What's up w/ the folk art skill level of the headstock engraving? If I'd custom ordered something and it showed up that way, I'd be sending it back...
I was looking at some of the Artist Awards on-line that have the same headstock design and see similar scribing on the headstock. Though I agree with you, it is rather amateurish, it is consistent with the AAs'. Maybe this was an attempt at Guild to make it more of an artists signature - such as in a painting?
I gota admit, overall, I'm not impressed with the workmanship of this Guild. Of note is the wacky cut-outs for the pickups. Dare I ask, perhaps some of the work was done after it left the factory?

kakerlak said:
This thing looks disgustingly dingy. Is there a reason a dealer wouldn't bother cleaning up a guitar they plan to sell at "more than $5k and less htan $20k?!"
I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm always very careful to clean/wipe down my guitars after use and always store them in their case. I took note that most of the used Guilds I bought had that human film (grunge) on them. And it took awhile to clean them up, but after that they really shined! (pun intended). It is my preference, but I agree, clean the damn thing - if not, at least for presentation!
 

kakerlak

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Guilderagain said:
I was looking at some of the Artist Awards on-line that have the same headstock design and see similar scribing on the headstock. Though I agree with you, it is rather amateurish, it is consistent with the AAs'. Maybe this was an attempt at Guild to make it more of an artists signature - such as in a painting?
I gota admit, overall, I'm not impressed with the workmanship of this Guild. Of note is the wacky cut-outs for the pickups. Dare I ask, perhaps some of the work was done after it left the factory?
--------------------------------

I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm always very careful to clean/wipe down my guitars after use and always store them in their case. I took note that most of the used Guilds I bought had that human film (grunge) on them. And it took awhile to clean them up, but after that they really shined! (pun intended). It is my preference, but I agree, clean the damn thing - if not, at least for presentation!

Yeah, the custom George Barnes model in Hans' book has that kind of engraving, but not this bad. Some of the letters look messed up and gone over again. I think the cutouts look ok; they're just weird to start with, but the binding is a little rough, maybe b/c it's shrunk some and started to curl a bit at the corners.

The grime...
It looks like the kind of thing I wouldn't want to touch... If I bought it, I'd start unstringing and disassembling it immediately. (and feel like washing my hands like a surgeon after spenfing a couple hours wiping in it, rehydrating all that filth...)

Maybe we've reached the point with guitars where leaving them as-is is the preferred treatment. Perhaps this filth is starting to be viewed as "patina." All the fake old Fenders that pop up nowadays come to mind. I know it's the way to go w/ antique furniture. I like to keep my instruments clean, though and a 100% mint vintage instrument is still worth more than a beat up, rusty, dirty one. That being the case, when you can increase condition factor w/o destroying originality by taking the thing mostly apart, steel-wooling all the metal, cleaning all the filth off the finish, shining the frets, oiling the fingerboard, why wouldn't you?

I can dig that, for a large volume dealer, it's not cost effective to spend multiple hours cleaning each and every instrument like the owner would/should, but with something you think can fetch several thousand dollars, wouldn't the effort/return ratio start to skew a bit in favor of spending some time on it? Parts of this guitar look like you could take a fingernail and scrape a trench into the detritus that's covering it...
 

gilded

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Dear Kak,

From a Seller's perspective:

1) Time is money. It would be a labor of love to clean that instrument.

2) Sometimes when you clean up a beat up old instrument (thin, missing lacquer, thin electroplating on the gold hardware, etc.), you wind up losing some of the finish or plating, or the finish is so impregnated with dirt and sweat that it dulls when you try and polish it; stuff like that. So, it's best to leave it alone from a retail perspective. It might also be on consignment and the shop doesn't want the financial responsibility for cleaning it ("You ruined my Dad's guitar!").

3) Finally, sometimes you clean it a lot, but not 'all the way'. So, it looks like you never did anything to it.
 

john_kidder

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kakerlak said:
I'm always very careful to clean/wipe down my guitars after use and always store them in their case. I took note that most of the used Guilds I bought had that human film (grunge) on them. And it took awhile to clean them up, but after that they really shined! (pun intended).

It looks like the kind of thing I wouldn't want to touch... If I bought it, I'd start unstringing and disassembling it immediately. (and feel like washing my hands like a surgeon after spenfing a couple hours wiping in it, rehydrating all that filth...)

Maybe we've reached the point with guitars where leaving them as-is is the preferred treatment. Perhaps this filth is starting to be viewed as "patina." . . . I know it's the way to go w/ antique furniture. I like to keep my instruments clean, though and a 100% mint vintage instrument is still worth more than a beat up, rusty, dirty one. That being the case, when you can increase condition factor w/o destroying originality by taking the thing mostly apart, steel-wooling all the metal, cleaning all the filth off the finish, shining the frets, oiling the fingerboard, why wouldn't you?

Parts of this guitar look like you could take a fingernail and scrape a trench into the detritus that's covering it...

There are few things that give me more pleasure than completely cleaning and polishing a dirty old guitar. A couple of hours of mindful work, and sometimes I swear I can feel the instrument thanking me.

Dirt and grunge and old dead sweat and finger scrapings around the frets and coke and beer and smoke film ain't "patina" - it just means the owner does not give a sh*t about the instrument. I have a few old pieces of furniture, two from the 1700s and lots from the nineteenth century. They have "patina" for sure, but they have been lovingly cleaned by a few generations of women who cared for them.

A dirty tool of any kind just does not work as well as a clean tool, a dull knife is an abomination, and an uncared-for instrument is just a shame to behold. Send me those tired, filthy, unwashed guitars. I'll give them the love they need.
 

kakerlak

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john_kidder said:
There are few things that give me more pleasure than completely cleaning and polishing a dirty old guitar. A couple of hours of mindful work, and sometimes I swear I can feel the instrument thanking me.

Dirt and grunge and old dead sweat and finger scrapings around the frets and coke and beer and smoke film ain't "patina" - it just means the owner does not give a sh*t about the instrument. I have a few old pieces of furniture, two from the 1700s and lots from the nineteenth century. They have "patina" for sure, but they have been lovingly cleaned by a few generations of women who cared for them.

A dirty tool of any kind just does not work as well as a clean tool, a dull knife is an abomination, and an uncared-for instrument is just a shame to behold. Send me those tired, filthy, unwashed guitars. I'll give them the love they need.

Amen John! I like to clean guitars, too. Sometimes (back in the day) you could flip guitars just by buying nasty ones from pawn shops in the morning, taking them home, cleaning them and taking them back up to the music store in the afternoon. And yeah, I want to stress that I think the relic craze and actual corrosion and filth being viewed as "honest patina" is bogus. If you take care of your stuff it doesn't ever look that way. It is kind of weird to see a custom-ordered jazz guitar look that way. Maybe he was a blind man.
 

capnjuan

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capnjuan said:
What's with the zero fret?
On the left below, the guitar threaded here Lark Street Georgie Boy and a plain vanilla Artist Award ID'd in another thread. The GB has a zero fret, the AA doesn't.

zerofret.jpg



Zero fret defined: chronic worry over one of these:

zerofret02.jpg



Although zero frets are seen on lesser quality instruments, they can also be found a higher quality instruments (some say to-may-toe, some say to-mah-toe).

The people at Fret Not Guitar Repair say:

"On an instrument with a "zero fret", the traditional slotted nut still controls the strings spacing but the zero fret (which is actually fret wire) now controls the height of the strings above the frets. The strings will lay directly on the zero fret and string height will be adjusted by filing or replacing the zero fret instead of cutting the slots in the nut deeper. On instruments with zero frets the scale length is measured from the zero fret to the saddle as opposed to the nut to saddle.

Technically speaking, when you play a C chord, for example, some notes of the chord are fretted others are open. This means the fretted notes rest upon a fret when resonating and the open notes rest upon a bone/plastic nut. When fretting that chord on an instrument with a zero fret, all strings, even the open ones rest upon a fret. Now, take that and run with it. Theoretically you could argue that this sounds like a very good thing, but in the real world you'll find a variety of opinions."

The people at Frets.com say:

"Likewise, the "zero fret" or "fret nut" is often associated with inexpensive instruments. It's not necessarily a cheaper way to make a guitar, and it is the way Selmer did it, so it's the way virtually all replicas are made, too. Detractors of the zero fret often cite the fact that it is a way to escape setting the height of the nut by avoiding the hand filing of each groove. In skilled hands, action setting at the nut takes only a few moments, so there really isn't all that much of a labor savings.

selmerfix05s.jpg


selmerfix24s.jpg


There's a lot of downward string pressure at the nut on any steel strung guitar with a slotted peghead. So, the metal bearing surface at the zero fret allows the string to slide over the nut more smoothly so the string doesn't "jump" or "ping" as it's tuned up. The bone nut only acts as a guide for spacing the strings and doesn't bear much load, so the string has far less tendency to settle into the bone and deform the bottom of the slots as it would in a traditional Martin design. As with so many other things, there's a down side, too. String windings are more likely to be damaged by the harder material of the zero fret than by a traditional bone nut."

Finally, the Wikis say:

"The zero fret is primarily used to reduce production costs. The zero fret was commonly (but not exclusively) associated with cheaper instruments, since the cost of the labor involved in making a nut with slots carefully filed to the correct height is greater than the labor required to install a zero fret. Some manufacturers that frequently use(d) a zero fret are Gretsch, Kay, Selmer, Höfner, Mosrite, Anderson, and Vigier. Now very few manufacturers use this design and those who do list it as a feature.

It is claimed that, with a zero fret, the sound of an open string more closely approximates the sound of a fretted string as compared to the open string sound on a guitar with no zero fret. Countering this claim are musicians who feel that a bone or even synthetic nut will enhance the overall tone of the instrument regardless of the string being played open or fretted. Since tone is so subjective, the two claims are likely to continue in perpetuity."


So ... zero frets may or may not have an influence on tone but if a guitar is made with a zero fret, the location of the saddle would need to be taken into consideration. Without lubrication on either/both the nut and zero fret, it's a choice between gouging out the string slots and lowering the action v. wearing down strings windings and possibly shortening the useful life of the strings.
 

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Nope, the price it sold for was beyond my reach

I know who did though - not a LTG member - and the same guy bought my X500 8)

The guitar is going to a lovely collection of fine jazz guitars; and will be played too
 
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