Neal
Senior Member
Having a collectible guitar you don't play is like having a collectible car that you don't drive.
In vintage guitars, where do you draw the line on originality?
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fronobulax
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On the contrary, I don't collect things that I actually want to use. If I want to use it, fine, but I don't pretend that I am collecting it and that its future value is a factor.
Too many people think they can have it both ways.
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
A friend of mine found a Gibson White Falcon in the trash one day on his way to work sometime in the '80s. In its orginal case. He kept it for several years years but when he contracted cancer he asked me to sell it for him. I put it up on eBay (in the late '90s) knowing almost nothing about it. Within two hours I had so many messages I couldn't keep up with them and I had to take the ad down.
But I knew by the messages I got that my friend Steve had something valuable.
I ended up selling it one of the premier Gibson collectors in the country, the guy Gibson went to when they needed photos of their vintage guitars for their calendars and the covers of their catalogues.
We spoke on the phone and went over the guitar together, with him asking all sorts of questions. He finally had me open up the guitar to check the backs of pickups. All were marked "Pat Pending," which indicated the guitar was one of the earliest White Falcons Gibson produced.
If I remember right, he paid me 21 grand for it.
But after he got the guitar, he called and asked me to check around the house for a spring that should have been attached to one of the pickups but wasn't. (It might have been loose in the pickup cavity and fallen out when I checked the pickups; I was pretty careful but who knows?)
Well, I looked but couldn't find it and he was plenty upset. But for that missing spring, he said, everything on the guitar was present and 100% original and it being missing reduced the value of the guitar by thousands of dollars.
I imagine that guitar today is worth many, many times what I got for it. But that 21 grand was a huge help to Steve when he most needed help.
Selling that guitar was a cool and exciting experience. I have to say, though, that being that kind of collector never appealed to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad someone is saving them for the museums and the guitar picture books (of which I have dozens) and posterity generally, but I'm glad it's not me.
Not that I could afford to be that kind of collector anyway!
But I knew by the messages I got that my friend Steve had something valuable.
I ended up selling it one of the premier Gibson collectors in the country, the guy Gibson went to when they needed photos of their vintage guitars for their calendars and the covers of their catalogues.
We spoke on the phone and went over the guitar together, with him asking all sorts of questions. He finally had me open up the guitar to check the backs of pickups. All were marked "Pat Pending," which indicated the guitar was one of the earliest White Falcons Gibson produced.
If I remember right, he paid me 21 grand for it.
But after he got the guitar, he called and asked me to check around the house for a spring that should have been attached to one of the pickups but wasn't. (It might have been loose in the pickup cavity and fallen out when I checked the pickups; I was pretty careful but who knows?)
Well, I looked but couldn't find it and he was plenty upset. But for that missing spring, he said, everything on the guitar was present and 100% original and it being missing reduced the value of the guitar by thousands of dollars.
I imagine that guitar today is worth many, many times what I got for it. But that 21 grand was a huge help to Steve when he most needed help.
Selling that guitar was a cool and exciting experience. I have to say, though, that being that kind of collector never appealed to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad someone is saving them for the museums and the guitar picture books (of which I have dozens) and posterity generally, but I'm glad it's not me.
Not that I could afford to be that kind of collector anyway!
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Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
No such thing, the White Falcon is a Gretsch model. Also, 21K seems really high for a white falcon in the late 90's.
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
It has been a while, AND I know next to nothing from electrics, so thanks for the correction!
It definitely went to a Gibson collector, of that I'm certain. We talked on the phone for a couple hours and and he bragged how Gibson had just sent professional photographers to his house to take pictures of guitars in his collection, that some of his guitars had been pictured on calendars, in books and catalogues.
Maybe he collected more than just Gibsons? Some collectors specialize in more than one brand, I understand.
Pretty sure about the 21 grand though. It was more than 11 grand, less than 31 grand, and it ended with a 1!
It definitely went to a Gibson collector, of that I'm certain. We talked on the phone for a couple hours and and he bragged how Gibson had just sent professional photographers to his house to take pictures of guitars in his collection, that some of his guitars had been pictured on calendars, in books and catalogues.
Maybe he collected more than just Gibsons? Some collectors specialize in more than one brand, I understand.
Pretty sure about the 21 grand though. It was more than 11 grand, less than 31 grand, and it ended with a 1!
Russell Letson
Member
A market is a market and a guitar is a guitar. "Original" condition has a range of meanings and values, and the value of originality is severely context-bound.
What is the value of an absolutely-original instrument? The crucial elements behind that question are "to whom?" and "for what purpose?" A museum (or its individual-collector equivalent) will likely prefer an object as it was intially produced, as an exemplar of authenticity. But a player hoping to produce a particular sound will likely settle for an instrument that produces an authentic sound and perhaps playing experience, to document the sound of an instrument (as on, for example, David Grisman's "Tone Poems" recordings) .
Ask a standard-repertory violinist in possession of an 18th-century instrument whether it is absolutely original, and whether and to what degree that condition matters. Ask the same question of a player dedicated to authentic-instrument performance (for example, playing Bach on a period-appropriate fiddle). Different takes. And then there's the matter of period-correct reproductions--read the instrument descriptions on, say, Romantic-period guitar recordings. How many of the pre-Torres guitars are all-original, how many restored, and how many are modern reproductions?
It's one thing to be an institution (or an individual) dedicated to preserving objects from the past as they were. It's another to be a performer in need of an instrument that behaves in a historically-correct way. And it's probably a third to just be obsessive-compulsive about originality. (I've spent time in a number of collecting subcultures, and I know exactly how "condition" works on both the psychological and economic sides.)
What is the value of an absolutely-original instrument? The crucial elements behind that question are "to whom?" and "for what purpose?" A museum (or its individual-collector equivalent) will likely prefer an object as it was intially produced, as an exemplar of authenticity. But a player hoping to produce a particular sound will likely settle for an instrument that produces an authentic sound and perhaps playing experience, to document the sound of an instrument (as on, for example, David Grisman's "Tone Poems" recordings) .
Ask a standard-repertory violinist in possession of an 18th-century instrument whether it is absolutely original, and whether and to what degree that condition matters. Ask the same question of a player dedicated to authentic-instrument performance (for example, playing Bach on a period-appropriate fiddle). Different takes. And then there's the matter of period-correct reproductions--read the instrument descriptions on, say, Romantic-period guitar recordings. How many of the pre-Torres guitars are all-original, how many restored, and how many are modern reproductions?
It's one thing to be an institution (or an individual) dedicated to preserving objects from the past as they were. It's another to be a performer in need of an instrument that behaves in a historically-correct way. And it's probably a third to just be obsessive-compulsive about originality. (I've spent time in a number of collecting subcultures, and I know exactly how "condition" works on both the psychological and economic sides.)
Neal
Senior Member
Take football and baseball cards, for example. Condition and rarity are paramount.
A few years back, I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, OH. Awesome place, just sitting there smack dab beside a busy Interstate.
They had a special exhibit of rare football cards, and one display of how cards are rated for condition, with examples of each rating. I swear I could not tell a 5 from a 9 (on a ten point scale). But people who are really into card collecting can, and will debate whether a card is a strong 8 or a weak 9.
I hear coin collecting is the same way.
But you can't use a card or a coin to make music. Guitars can be viewed as art, or a tool to make music, at the same time.
A few years back, I visited the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, OH. Awesome place, just sitting there smack dab beside a busy Interstate.
They had a special exhibit of rare football cards, and one display of how cards are rated for condition, with examples of each rating. I swear I could not tell a 5 from a 9 (on a ten point scale). But people who are really into card collecting can, and will debate whether a card is a strong 8 or a weak 9.
I hear coin collecting is the same way.
But you can't use a card or a coin to make music. Guitars can be viewed as art, or a tool to make music, at the same time.
Rambozo96
Senior Member
I am a player first and a collector second so I think a deal breaker for me is if the guitar won’t stay in tune. That 65’ Airline guitar I bought has probably the junkiest tuners I ever had the displeasure of experiencing. They will probably be replaced with Gotoh’s which most definitely hurt the value a tad but if the guitar won’t stay in tune what’s the point?
donnylang
Member
I think we’re all talking about different things to varying degrees.
I’m personally very very far from a collector. But originality matters a lot to me, as does playability.
I think considering whether or not you are going to keep the guitar long-term does factor in, not only in potential reduction of the market value- but also: you are deciding to mess around with a little piece of history for short term gain. Not saying this is good or bad (maybe there’s a good reason- you’re making a record, etc), just adding that piece in.
Let’s take something like the original saddles on 1960s guitars. They were not set up to intonate particularly well. The nut, saddle, pins- were often plastic. The tuners were not the best. Etc etc etc. Yet lots of historical recordings and performances were made with these guitars as they were. If you are a player/songwriter/recordist who wants to get into the ballpark of the original “vibe” of the instrument, changing these things affects the final result. And it’s definitely cumulative- the more changes that are made, the more different (not better or worse) it becomes.
An example is the the string spacing on the 1960s Martin 12 strings is odd- the octaves are kind of far apart from the primary strings. Most people change the nut to make it easier to play. I’ve had a few examples with replaced nut, and one recent one with the original nut. It takes some getting used to. And the results are different, in terms of feel and sound. Different guitars make people play differently. And to each their own- but we are talking about owners personalizing guitars to suit their own needs, thus making “design decisions” that differ from the original. If everyone swapped the nuts on all ‘60s Martins (most do), none would play like they did in the ‘60s. Something to think about.
Another example is when bridges are replaced, they almost never use the "through saddle" on older Guilds. A lot of smart people think this has a noticeable impact on sound. I personally prefer plastic parts for nut, saddle, and end pins also.
My ultimate point here is that a guitar is greater than the sum of its parts. When you start changing little things, they add up - and eventually, you will end up with a slightly different guitar.
I’m personally very very far from a collector. But originality matters a lot to me, as does playability.
I think considering whether or not you are going to keep the guitar long-term does factor in, not only in potential reduction of the market value- but also: you are deciding to mess around with a little piece of history for short term gain. Not saying this is good or bad (maybe there’s a good reason- you’re making a record, etc), just adding that piece in.
Let’s take something like the original saddles on 1960s guitars. They were not set up to intonate particularly well. The nut, saddle, pins- were often plastic. The tuners were not the best. Etc etc etc. Yet lots of historical recordings and performances were made with these guitars as they were. If you are a player/songwriter/recordist who wants to get into the ballpark of the original “vibe” of the instrument, changing these things affects the final result. And it’s definitely cumulative- the more changes that are made, the more different (not better or worse) it becomes.
An example is the the string spacing on the 1960s Martin 12 strings is odd- the octaves are kind of far apart from the primary strings. Most people change the nut to make it easier to play. I’ve had a few examples with replaced nut, and one recent one with the original nut. It takes some getting used to. And the results are different, in terms of feel and sound. Different guitars make people play differently. And to each their own- but we are talking about owners personalizing guitars to suit their own needs, thus making “design decisions” that differ from the original. If everyone swapped the nuts on all ‘60s Martins (most do), none would play like they did in the ‘60s. Something to think about.
Another example is when bridges are replaced, they almost never use the "through saddle" on older Guilds. A lot of smart people think this has a noticeable impact on sound. I personally prefer plastic parts for nut, saddle, and end pins also.
My ultimate point here is that a guitar is greater than the sum of its parts. When you start changing little things, they add up - and eventually, you will end up with a slightly different guitar.
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Br1ck
Senior Member
Recently there were no bids on a Clapton Strat, reserve of 1 million.
GuildInAtlanta
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Thank you for all the thoughts and feedback!
I knew I had a quick trip to Nashville in my future and knew I would have time to check out some guitars while in town, so I wanted to get some ideas before I went to possibly some of the top shops in southeast for vintage guitars.
Well, this trip I could only fit in one stop so I went by Carter's Vintage Guitars. Extremely nice people to work and and very helpful! I can't say enough about how impressed I was with everyone working there, their inventory, and the overall experience.
The main reason I choose this store was the chance to play a 1965 Gibson F-50 that was supposedly in great shape. And...it was! I liked the guitar, and I compared it to other slope shoulders from the 50's. I also played vintage Doves, J-200's, a J-35, and many D-28's and D-18's. It was fantastic, and I would have loved to spend the whole day there but I only had about an hour and a half to spare.
No, I didn't walk away with the '65 F-50, and I'm even more curious to hear more guitars. It was just amazing a learn how different the tone can be between two vintage guitars that are practically the same year, maker & model.
The guitar that impressed me the most was a 1943 Martin D-18 that had undergone extensive repairs. Everything was still original (top, back, sides, bridge, etc,) but all had been repaired. ---EDIT: I just looked at my photos and realized I got it mixed up with one of the other ones. This guitar had a refret, bridge, neck reset, and bridge plate, and it played really well! No wonder. ---- The resonance was something you can't quite put into words...and it was $17,500.
But here's the kicker. There was a 2020 Gibson Hummingbird Vintage that was amazing too. The guys at the shop pulled it out shortly after I got there and said you've got to hear this, while I was playing the 1965 J-50. It was actually was a little more resonant? All the notes just seemed a little crisper, and although it didn't have quite the depth of the J-50, but it really wasn't that far off. That was about $4250...I think. Who knows if all the "new vintage" Gibson's are that good, but that guitar was impressive.
So, I got a lesson in vintage tone versus economics. You can buy 4 "new vintage" Hummingbirds that sound really good, for the price of one vintage 1943 D-18!
This is going to be a fun hunt! After the first of the year I'll be working on coordinating the gracious opportunity to look at someone's stable of vintage Guilds (some for sale, some not), so I'm really excited learn a little more and advance to round two. Today I'm less worried about the brand and just more focused on finding an amazing tone.
I knew I had a quick trip to Nashville in my future and knew I would have time to check out some guitars while in town, so I wanted to get some ideas before I went to possibly some of the top shops in southeast for vintage guitars.
Well, this trip I could only fit in one stop so I went by Carter's Vintage Guitars. Extremely nice people to work and and very helpful! I can't say enough about how impressed I was with everyone working there, their inventory, and the overall experience.
The main reason I choose this store was the chance to play a 1965 Gibson F-50 that was supposedly in great shape. And...it was! I liked the guitar, and I compared it to other slope shoulders from the 50's. I also played vintage Doves, J-200's, a J-35, and many D-28's and D-18's. It was fantastic, and I would have loved to spend the whole day there but I only had about an hour and a half to spare.
No, I didn't walk away with the '65 F-50, and I'm even more curious to hear more guitars. It was just amazing a learn how different the tone can be between two vintage guitars that are practically the same year, maker & model.
The guitar that impressed me the most was a 1943 Martin D-18 that had undergone extensive repairs. Everything was still original (top, back, sides, bridge, etc,) but all had been repaired. ---EDIT: I just looked at my photos and realized I got it mixed up with one of the other ones. This guitar had a refret, bridge, neck reset, and bridge plate, and it played really well! No wonder. ---- The resonance was something you can't quite put into words...and it was $17,500.
But here's the kicker. There was a 2020 Gibson Hummingbird Vintage that was amazing too. The guys at the shop pulled it out shortly after I got there and said you've got to hear this, while I was playing the 1965 J-50. It was actually was a little more resonant? All the notes just seemed a little crisper, and although it didn't have quite the depth of the J-50, but it really wasn't that far off. That was about $4250...I think. Who knows if all the "new vintage" Gibson's are that good, but that guitar was impressive.
So, I got a lesson in vintage tone versus economics. You can buy 4 "new vintage" Hummingbirds that sound really good, for the price of one vintage 1943 D-18!
This is going to be a fun hunt! After the first of the year I'll be working on coordinating the gracious opportunity to look at someone's stable of vintage Guilds (some for sale, some not), so I'm really excited learn a little more and advance to round two. Today I'm less worried about the brand and just more focused on finding an amazing tone.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
I laughed out loud.
Who could blame him after Gloppy?:
NGD: Gloppy, the Totally Abused D-35
So, for those of you that frequent the forum, you may recall an eBay listing a few weeks ago for a '81 D-35 that was so totally whipped that it begged for redemption and salvation. Covered in a gloppy, sprayed-on finish that was heavily and amateurishly applied, so that it encased the guitar in...
letstalkguild.com
[/QUOTE]
bobouz
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This pretty much tells the story for me. I enjoy both new & vintage instruments equally, based on playability first (I've got to want to have it in hand - otherwise, what's the point?), then tone, and then aesthetics. I try to maintain originality with all of them to the greatest extent possible, but structural integrity sometimes wins out & a modification must be made.
Enjoy the hunt, and leave yourself open to everything!
musicofanatic
Member
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I am admittedly a "vinnidge guitar snob" so almost all of my instruments are pre-1970. That said, my last name is not Rockefeller and have worked most of my life as a professional musician, so I am not buying "mint" examples. Originality is more important than cosmetic condition to me. I do not mind a totally beat finish, even chunks missing (headstock corners, etc), and certainly not heavy play wear. But of paramount importance to me is that parts have not been changed or especially "upgraded". I will not purchase a guitar that has had Grovers or similar big, clunky "modern" tuners installed, pickups changed, nickel plated hardware replaced with chrome. I am going to drag these things to gigs and play them, but I want them to retain the elements that would have appealed to me if I purchased them when they were new. Here's a good example...Ugly as hell, but all original parts present and accounted for...
Neal
Senior Member
I laughed out loud.
Who could blame him after Gloppy?:
NGD: Gloppy, the Totally Abused D-35
So, for those of you that frequent the forum, you may recall an eBay listing a few weeks ago for a '81 D-35 that was so totally whipped that it begged for redemption and salvation. Covered in a gloppy, sprayed-on finish that was heavily and amateurishly applied, so that it encased the guitar in...
I’m happy to say that Gloppy is still being played by the young man I gave it to, after rescuing it from its poly straitjacket.
Last month, I donated Tonya, my abused, dilapidated ‘71 F-20, to the Front Porch, a nonprofit roots music school in Charlottesville. Long may you live, Tonya and Gloppy, both perfectly imperfect.
For more on the Front Porch, here is the link. I am a board member for the organization, and we are hosting our annual fund drive.
The Front Porch - Music School and Concerts in Charlottesville
The Front Porch provides Central Virginia with a community that connects people through music! Education, concerts, jams, and more.
frontporchcville.org
Neal
Senior Member
I am admittedly a "vinnidge guitar snob" so almost all of my instruments are pre-1970. That said, my last name is not Rockefeller and have worked most of my life as a professional musician, so I am not buying "mint" examples. Originality is more important than cosmetic condition to me. I do not mind a totally beat finish, even chunks missing (headstock corners, etc), and certainly not heavy play wear. But of paramount importance to me is that parts have not been changed or especially "upgraded". I will not purchase a guitar that has had Grovers or similar big, clunky "modern" tuners installed, pickups changed, nickel plated hardware replaced with chrome. I am going to drag these things to gigs and play them, but I want them to retain the elements that would have appealed to me if I purchased them when they were new. Here's a good example...Ugly as hell, but all original parts present and accounted for...
Late ‘40’s/early ‘50’s Gibson ES-175?
I prefer 100% original, down to the nut, saddle, and endpin if possible.
Changes I'm comfortable with are nut, saddle, endpin- these are often changed, so very tough to find original. Changes I tolerate are reversible aftermarket electronics, minor repairs here are there (bracing, patches, etc.), tuners, pickguard. Where things start get dicey for me are irreversible changes like bridge replacement, bridge plate, and beyond. I might still buy a guitar with these kinds of changes, if they were done with respect to the original, but it would factor into how much I would pay. I would prefer a cracked + glued original bridge than a new one, for instance- most don't share my opinion on this.
Any replacement of key parts of the guitar itself, I would pass- regardless of the deal. Like if the top was replaced, it's a new guitar IMO. I would not be interested in a vintage guitar w/ replaced fretboard, etc. either.
Part of what makes a vintage guitar appealing to me is the "time machine" aspect - as in, you are experiencing playing an instrument that existed in another time and place. For every small change that is made, that is impacted in small increments, but these add up.
I am already forced to accept non-vintage strings!
Yeah, what he said! I just had a bridge crack repaired on my old D25M with Brazilian bridge and fingerboard.
But I would add one thing: it needs to sing "take me home" to my ears.
I have the opportunity to visit Elderly Instruments quite often, and I've played numerous vintage guitars in their acoustic room that met all the above criteria but did not sing "take me home."
And unfortunately the ones that did sing "take me home" I couldn't afford to adopt!
musicofanatic
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The pictured "ugly" guitar? '47-'48 ES-300. I do not believe it ever saw the interior of a case until I got it. I should add to the above that I am kind of a nut concerning original cases as being a portion of "all original parts intact" with vintage guitar purchases. I knew where to find an appropriate late 1940s case for this one so I overlooked this criteria. Pickguard had long ago disintegrated; I fabricated a replica after I got the guitar.
beecee
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That sentiment will serve you well. Be hard to second guess yourself with that attitude!!
Tom O
Member
Robert,
Thanks for your comments on Gibsons. I compare all my guitars to my 64 Gibson J-50. I bought it in Dec. 65. Still sounds good. Added Bone Adj Saddle and bone pins. Glad to hear the new ones sound good. But I love my Guilds too.
Thanks for your comments on Gibsons. I compare all my guitars to my 64 Gibson J-50. I bought it in Dec. 65. Still sounds good. Added Bone Adj Saddle and bone pins. Glad to hear the new ones sound good. But I love my Guilds too.