I know I'm gonna be sorry I asked but......

RBSinTo

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Yes, that would absolutely be the kind of thing that would happen here. We're a nutty bunch. :)
Sounds like a variant of the Gildsters' affliction that forces them to buy one of every "different" j-45 hat Gibson issues.
Symptoms include rooms of identical instruments that differ only in finish colour, the hue of the tuner buttons, or posting videos showing that a particular artist once was seen playing one.
I've been double vaccinated for years.
RBSinTo
 

fronobulax

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Sounds like a variant of the Gildsters' affliction that forces them to buy one of every "different" j-45 hat Gibson issues.
Symptoms include rooms of identical instruments that differ only in finish colour, the hue of the tuner buttons, or posting videos showing that a particular artist once was seen playing one.
I've been double vaccinated for years.
RBSinTo

Perhaps the only difference is that the Guild obsessive with 5 different F30's will have four distinct instruments and not a closet full of functionally identical instruments :)
 

GAD

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You and I have radically different understandings of what constitutes "distinct" as it applies to differences.
RBSinTo

Guitars can absolutely have distinct sounds even though they're the same model. Acoustic instruments moreso than solidbody electrics. Watch a master make an archtop and you'll get a quick appreciation of how different they can be.
 

HeyMikey

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You and I have radically different understandings of what constitutes "distinct" as it applies to differences.
RBSinTo

That is a true statement.

I guess before you judge others you need to play similar models from different Guild factories. What you are perhaps missing is that Guild production involved a lot of hand work. It’s volume was and still is much less than compared to the big boys. There is definite variation and there are folks here who can state that as fact from having played them.
 

fronobulax

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You and I have radically different understandings of what constitutes "distinct" as it applies to differences.
RBSinTo

Maybe. But some of the differences are in things like body shape and dimension so I am comfortable in thinking they matter to someone. Remember Guild model names and specs are not consistent.
 

adorshki

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GAD,
Taking this logic to its conclusion that every guitar built by a different person is different from the same models built by other people, does this mean that if five guys work at _______making model XYZ, Guildsters will try to determine which guitars were built by which guy and try to buy one built by each guy?????
RBSinTo
The only guy I can recall that we know specifically built certain guitars is Carlo Greco during Hoboken period, and yes his guitars are highly sought after.

Hans may know of other folks who were dedicated to building specific instruments (ah, just remembered, Greco mentored a guy named Julio Costa who went on to be "responsible for the top-of-the line MarkVII classical guitars which were almost entirely made by him") but the instruments were mostly built "team fashion" with certain folks specializing in top construction, or back making, neck building and then shaping, completing the guitar from all the components, finishing, you get the idea.

Westerly's production flow was laid out by Carlo Greco, much like Oxnard's was laid out by Ren Ferguson almost 50 years later, to address the question of actual changes in production methodology and the fact that layout is deemed to be an important element in getting good builds, and we know tooling has changed over the years too: the only piece of tooling left from Westerly that is still in use in Oxnard is the archback press. Been at 5 different factories now.

Certain guys became mentors for new hires as seen above, so changes in the "ways of doing things" did occur over time as new guys came in, like George Gruhn in the mid-80's, from being asked by Mark Dronge to offer up a couple of fresh F40 body and dreadnought designs in '84 to the introduction of the Nightbird family.

Personally I think he was a major factor in Guild builds beginning to "lighten up" again in the late '80's, as he was even a part owner for a while. His "partner" Kim Walker has said he was involved in bringing some of Gruhn's ideas to reality even after he left.

The "snakehead" headstock was introduced by Gruhn.

Oh yes, I believe the Guild Nashville Custom shop ['97-'02(?), it became a factory repair facility around the time Corona shut down, never saw an actual date on that, but stayed that way until around '11, IIRC.] also had folks who could/would build complete pieces ala Fender's "Masterbuilt" guitars (of which their are also a few Guilds, so there's another name: Chris Fleming at the Corona Fender Custom Shop)]

Also, in the Guild Guitar Book, Hans Moust said Westerly in the late'60's was actually more like a custom shop than a production house. They were trying all kinds of ideas, building lots of "Specials" or one-offs "just because", it seems like, and we've seen numerous examples of specs that got changed on the fly during production either to accommodate a need, or to improve quality.

Thing is, they were small enough to do it without being "hamstrung" by the limitations of a massive production machine like Gibson or Martin.

Now are you sorry you asked? :D
 
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Opsimath

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The only guy I can recall that we know specifically built certain guitars is Carlo Greco during Hoboken period, and yes his guitars are highly sought after.

Hans may know of other folks who were dedicated to building specific instruments (ah, just remembered, Greco mentored a guy named Julio Costa who went on to "responsible for the top-of-the line MarkVII classical guitars which were almost entirely made by him") but the instruments were mostly built "team fashion" with certain folks specializing in top construction, or back making, neck building and then shaping, completing the guitar from all the components, finishing, you get the idea.

Westerly's production flow was laid out by Carlo Greco, much like Oxnard's was laid out by Ren Ferguson almost 50 years later, to address the question of actual changes in production methodology and the fact that layout is deemed to be an important element in getting good builds, and we know tooling has changed over the years too: the only piece of tooling left from Westerly that is still in use in Oxnard is the archback press. Been at 5 different factories now.

Certain guys became mentors for new hires as seen above, so changes in the "ways of doing things" did occur over time as new guys came in, like George Gruhn in the mid-80's, from being asked by Mark Dronge to offer up a couple of fresh F40 body and dreadnought designs in '84 to the introduction of the Nightbird family.

Personally I think he was a major factor in Guild builds beginning to "lighten up" again in the late '80's, as he was even a part owner for a while. His "partner" Kim Walker has said he was involved in bringing some of Gruhn's ideas to reality even after he left.

The "snakehead" headstock was introduced by Gruh.

Oh yes, I believe the Guild Nashville Custom shop ['97-'02(?), it became a factory repair facility around the time Corona shut down, never an actual date on the, but stayed that way until around '11, IIRC.] also had who could/would build complete pieces ala Fender's "Masterbuilt" guitars (of which their are also a few Guilds, so there's another name: Chris Fleming at the Corona Fender Custom Shop)]

Also, in the Guild Guitar Book, Hans Moust said Westerly in the late'60's was actually more like a custom shop than a production house. They were trying all kinds of ideas, building lots of "Specials" or one-offs "just because", it seems like, and we've seen numerous examples of specs that got changed on the fly during production either to accommodate a need, or to improve quality.

Thing is, they were small enough to do it without being "hamstrung" by the limitations of a massive production machine like Gibson or Martin.

Now are you sorry you asked? :D
The stuff you know is astounding!
 

adorshki

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The stuff you know is astounding!
Thanks, it's why I came here in the first place, and 10 years of daily reading helps, along with the occasional correction by other respected members. :D

But I frequently go back to source material to be sure I still remember stuff correctly, such as when I cite the Guild Guitar Book.

And I still know next to nothing about electrics, flattops being my primary love. :cool:
 

SFIV1967

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Taking this logic to its conclusion that every guitar built by a different person is different from the same models built by other people, does this mean that if five guys work at _______making model XYZ, Guildsters will try to determine which guitars were built by which guy and try to buy one built by each guy?????
Yes, absolutely! If you take the Fender custom shop as example (not even talking Guild here) it is important to certain people to have Stratocasters built from like Todd Krause, John Cruz, Yuriy Shishkow, Dennis Galuszka, Greg Fessler, Ron Thorn,...or previously Chris Fleming as example. So yes, such master craftsmen definitelly make a difference when building guitars! Or take woman like Abigail Ybbara and Josefina Campos at Fender, people buy guitars only because they wound the pickups in them! Same for Seymour Duncan's Maricela Juarez (MJ).
In Guilds history people like Carlo Greco, George Gruhn, Kim Walker, Tim Shaw, Ren Ferguson,...all had a special impact on the brand. So a Ren Ferguson designed Orpheum model or a Kim Walker designed model or a George Gruhn codesigned model are all different, o.k., in that case at least they all didn't build the same model. But if Ren redesigned a model like it happened in New Hartford or Oxnard, that changed the model even if you might not see anything that changed. Or think about the different types of glue used! Hideglue vs. Titebond makes a difference even if you don't see it.

Ralf
 

bobouz

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Playability is another highly significant factor in all of this. Fingerboard width, fingerboard radius, neck profile, scale length - these critical features have changed many times throughout the years, and typically leave behind predictable & known footprints.

Playability factors keenly into why I’m drawn to a certain factory or era, whether we’re talking about Guild, Gibson, or Martin.
 

Default

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The difference with New Hartford and CMG Guild from the other eras is the higher use of CNC machines. That allows a repeatability of extremely close tolerances when building individual components. On the tours, the guide would often mention the goal of machining the necks so finely that there would be minimal sanding.
On the topic of models with the same designation, my NH D-50 is larger than my Westerly D-40, even though the dreadnought shape is assumed to be a standard. I seem to remember hearing that the dimensions have shrunk slightly with the CMG Guilds, but I could be fooling myself.
 

fronobulax

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the only piece of tooling left from Westerly that is still in use in Oxnard is the archback press. Been at 5 different factories now.

Since I recently got reeducated on this point, there are videos of old equipment, besides the press, being unloaded in Oxnard after shipping from New Harford. So I agree that the press is almost certainly the only piece of tooling left from Westerly but there is equipment that almost certainly has been used at both New Hartford and Oxnard.
 

adorshki

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Since I recently got reeducated on this point, there are videos of old equipment, besides the press, being unloaded in Oxnard after shipping from New Harford. So I agree that the press is almost certainly the only piece of tooling left from Westerly but there is equipment that almost certainly has been used at both New Hartford and Oxnard.
Right, but Pilzer said all the Tacoma tooling was left behind (with the exception of the press) so we know that was a "cut-off" point for anything from pre-NH era.
 

JohnW63

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Your question may have just educated a host of forum lurkers or someone who does a web search next week and the search engine pulls up this thread. So,,,don't be sorry. :)
 
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