Guilds now made in Mexico???

[RT 66]

Hi Guys!
Elderly just listed these two used Guild models on their used list, a 2007 DV6 and a 2007 DV4
In their description is included this line.
"made in Tacoma Wa, the production of this model has been moved to Mexico. Get the USA made guitar while you can"

BTW! There is a nice 93 D55 for $1550 and a 91 D50NT for $1200.
They might be getting made in Mexico now too, so hurry up and get yours today.

Elderly is usually a pretty tight outfit. Are they slipping or do they know something we don't?

RT

 

[chazmo]

Rt 66,

The DV-4 and DV-6 are now made in Ensenada. True.

These are the only two models that we know about which have emigrated south. The D-55 has already started coming ou of New Hartford (one was shown at NAMM last week). Other dreads are on their "list".

The future of all the other models is obviously still not certain, but I believe the intent is to ramp them up in New Hartford. They've built out a large part of the factory floor there (from what we've heard) to carry on with Tacoma now shut down.

I hope Elderly is wrong speculating that other models will go to Mexico, but until we hear otherwise that remains a possibility.

 

[Bing k]

They've built out a large part of the factory floor there (from what we've heard) to carry on with Tacoma now shut down.

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant so if they placed them all( even half of them) in New Hartford it took some substantial square footage.
Those machines were one of the primary reasons for the purchase of Tacoma Guitar. (about $750,000 each replacement now I guess) The building was leased from a plywood company who wanted more rent was the story I got.

Those folks who visit LTG from the plant should be able to tell us if all those CNCs were installed in New Hartford.

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant.....................

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a CNC??

~nw

 

[Dr. Spivey]

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant.....................

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a CNC??

~nw

Computer numeric control. Any of a variety of automated machines that can rapidly produce identical parts.

 

[zzrider]

Corporate Non-Commitment

 

[chazmo]

They've built out a large part of the factory floor there (from what we've heard) to carry on with Tacoma now shut down.

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant so if they placed them all( even half of them) in New Hartford it took some substantial square footage.
Those machines were one of the primary reasons for the purchase of Tacoma Guitar. (about $750,000 each replacement now I guess) The building was leased from a plywood company who wanted more rent was the story I got.

Those folks who visit LTG from the plant should be able to tell us if all those CNCs were installed in New Hartford.

I think it's time for another missive to Mr. Untermyer.

 

[Jeff]

They've built out a large part of the factory floor there (from what we've heard) to carry on with Tacoma now shut down.

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant so if they placed them all( even half of them) in New Hartford it took some substantial square footage.
Those machines were one of the primary reasons for the purchase of Tacoma Guitar. (about $750,000 each replacement now I guess) The building was leased from a plywood company who wanted more rent was the story I got.

...

This video from the Taylor website isn't of a CNC, but it's sure as heck a good example of modern automation. Crimniny, this is a nice machine !!!

Young man running the machine says he's made as many as 700 Taylor necks in 7 hours.

The factory Fridays section of Taylors website is fascinating, once I was lost there for several hours. Taylor designs & manufactures much of their own tooling, sections on side benders are worth a look. Bob Taylor knows how to sell guitars, yessir he does.

Can't link directly to the video, click Factory Fridays from the menu to the right of the screen.

http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/

 

[chazmo]

The Taylor website is a truly fantastic example of a communicative, content-rich site (next to LTG, of course. ). I've spent more time watching and re-watching those viddies than anywhere else guitar-related. I highly recommend it to everyone with an interest in guitar making and care.

 

[plaidseason]

While I'm not hug fan of Taylor guitar guitars aesthetically, I have the utmost respect for Bob and his company. Their level of quality is second to none. And Bob has a real cooperative spirit and a deep love for guitarmaking. A few years back he spent a day answering dozens of question on innumerable topics. Regardless of the tone of the question, Bob graciously offered an answer. They are an honest to goodess responsible company that appears to care quite about it about its customers.

 

[sitka_spruce]

[quote="Nigel Wickwire":1q4fhp9c]

There was I believe 8 recent CNCs in the Tacoma plant.....................

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a CNC??

~nw

Computer numeric control. Any of a variety of automated machines that can rapidly produce identical parts.[/quote:1q4fhp9c]
Yep, used to be known as NC. Saw some videos of CF Martin's factory tour and those robots seem to be sneaking in everywhere now. They mill the necks into their rough shape, they cut out the tops. There's still a lot of hands-on building going on, but these machines clearly ease the burden of making every little touch by hand.

I know many luthiers that make a gimick out of not using any CNC machines, but I'm not sure this will reflect in or could be transposed into quality as such. Could this just be an attempted act of moderation to the acoustic market by traditionally schooled luthiers that can't keep up with the dropping prices and faster build as results by these major manufacturers' putting more into the hands of... well, machines?

 

[fronobulax]

I know many luthiers that make a gimick out of not using any CNC machines, but I'm not sure this will reflect in or could be transposed into quality as such. Could this just be an attempted act of moderation to the acoustic market by traditionally schooled luthiers that can't keep up with the dropping prices and faster build as results by these major manufacturers' putting more into the hands of... well, machines?

I was talking to a local luthier who used to teach a "build your own guitar" course at a local shop. Basically you paid a fee and in return got parts, shop time, and an instructor who would show you the next step before you tried it yourself. At the end you had a guitar that you built yourself.

Anyway, since the Martin factory is within driving distance, he shared that Martin made a lot of his parts. He'd do things like buy rough (machine) finished neck blanks and then do the rest of the work by hand. He also took pride in finding parts that had been rejected because they were out of tolerance for machine work but were perfectly servicable for hand work.

 

[chazmo]

Sitka,

I don't know that I'd call it a gimmick... There is an argument (not that I buy it) that making all parts with traditional machines is what luthierie is all about.

I can appreciate that argument, but really... even starting with the logging process... you think guys are using hand saws to cut the stock. Nah. IMO, the CNC is just another evolution of a tool. There's all kinds of hand-finishing after the CNC machining is done with a part, so it's hardly a done deal when a part is constructed. I suppose if someday we have a device like in Star Trek where a machine builds a finished items just by asking for it, well, that'll certainly be difficult for a luthier to justify.

 

[cjd-player]

I have no issues with taking the grunt work out of woodworking / guitar making by using machines. What difference does it make if you cut the top shape out of the soundboard blank using a hand-held scroll saw, a powered band saw, or in the case of Taylor, a computer controlled laser ... or even your brother-in-law's drywall saw?

Machines can cut joinery more accurately than by hand, which means the resultant glue joints will be more consistent and stronger. The downside is that there is a lot of set-up time to get the cuts correct, and cutting tools must be maintained.
In a factory, the consistency of the machine setup is a critical factor in maintain quality.

And I say this as an avid woodworker who loves to use hand tools to hand plane surfaces, hand cut dovetails, etc.

Whether the work is done by hand or machine does not determine quality. I think the quality of the final instrument is a combination of the quality of the raw materials, skill and expertise in knowing how parts must be manufactued (such as bending), how well the parts fit together and are assembled, and how well the finish is applied. The design and selection of raw materials effect the tone: body shape, bracing, laminate versus solid wood.

As buyers, we tend to focus on 1. fit and finish, 'cause that's what we can see and feel, and 2. tone. Althoiugh not necessarlity in that order.

I think many people still have the romanticized vision that only a Jepetto-like character with wood shavings up to his ankles can create a fabulous instrument using nothing but hand tools. I don't think the skill in creating a great guitar is in how the wood is cut and shaped, but rather in the design and selection of materials.

 

[Graham]

Whether the work is done by hand or machine does not determine quality. I think the quality of the final instrument is a combination of the quality of the raw materials, skill and expertise in knowing how parts must be manufactued (such as bending), how well the parts fit together and are assembled, and how well the finish is applied. The design and selection of raw materials effect the tone: body shape, bracing, laminate versus solid wood.

As buyers, we tend to focus on 1. fit and finish, 'cause that's what we can see and feel, and 2. tone. Althoiugh not necessarlity in that order.

I think many people still have the romanticized vision that only a Jepetto-like character with wood shavings up to his ankles can create a fabulous instrument using nothing but hand tools. I don't think the skill in creating a great guitar is in how the wood is cut and shaped, but rather in the design and selection of materials.

Well said Carl.

 

[chazmo]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[fronobulax]

I suppose if someday we have a device like in Star Trek where a machine builds a finished items just by asking for it, well, that'll certainly be difficult for a luthier to justify.

We're getting closer.

 

[bluegrass jubilee]

Even with the use of CNC, there is a TON of handwork/sanding/joining/buffing/etc...that goes into mass production guitars. Even boutique makers are using more and more CNC operations

 

[chazmo]

frono, that is so true. The 3D printers are very cool. Y'know this all stems from the cross-sectional MRI stuff that's been in use in medecine for years. Prof. MacCormack (sp?) from Tufts (my Alma Mater) was one of the progenitors of that equipment,. These days, the 3D imaging that can be done with magnets and radiation is simply amazing!

 

[Bing k]

Ditto, ditto, ditto on a lot of the above points. It's all about the quality of the materials and the work that goes into them. I watch a guy every day who still does it all by hand with some power tools because every piece is still a custom job.
But if mass production ever comes into play you can bet we'll be at the bank financing some CNC or other "rapid fire make a bunch of parts exactly the same in a short amount of time" technology.

Wonder what that's going to cost us. :?