Guild Starfire III with 2 serial numbers?

[Guildmember]

Hi all!

New LTG member here! I'm delighted to say that after many many months of searching for a Guild Starfire the right one finally popped up last week. It's labeled a Starfire III, but with the modifications done to it I'm gonna go ahead and call it a Starfire II 1/2. All I can say is that I'm extremely happy with this guitar! It plays and sounds fantastic and is definitely a keeper. My post here is mainly out of curiosity to see if any knowledgeable LTGers can help me figure out what might have happened with this guitar.

Pressed on the guitar is serial# 44024, but underneath it reads the serial# 21869. My initial research suggests the 44024 serial number dates to around '64 and the 21869 to around '62 (thought admittedly I may be off). The serial# in the control cavity of the guitar has been completely crossed out and despite my best efforts is truly unreadable. Further, the guitar features the earlier open book headstock shape as well as the later stairstep pickguard. The guitar came with the harp tailpiece, but the seller indicated that they suspect it had a Guildsby at one time.

Given that this is a 60 year old instrument I know that it's virtually impossible to tell what might have happened at the factory versus what a subsequent owner may have done to it. I'm just hoping to learn a little more about its history. Any thoughts?

Thank you!
Guildmember

 

[walrus]

I have no clue on the serial number, but I love the guitar! Congratulations, and welcome to LTG!

 

[BradHK]

That is a nice looking Starfire!

I am going to make a random guess that this was an earlier body completed later and restamped. No idea on the scratched out serial number on the label as I can’t imagine it leaving the factory like that. The parts not correct I can see from your photos is the harp tailpiece, bridge and switch tip. As you stated, as a Starfire III it should have a Guildsby and this would have also been paired with the bigsby aluminum rocking bridge. If it was built in 1962 it would have DeArmonds, the curved pickguard, and clear(ish) Guild knobs. The tuners would be the same either year. The pickups, knobs, and pickguard match the later serial number build date. The 44024 serial number should have the peaked headstock rather than the open book. This again leads me to believe it was an earlier body completed later. Here is a Starfire below with serial number 37163 with the peaked headstock. I guess it is possible that somebody swapped out the knobs, pickguard and pickups over the last 60 years but that would not explain the extra serial number. Have you pulled the pickups to see if there is any evidence that other pickups have been mounted in the past? If it originally had DeArmonds you should see extra holes. I just compared two of mine and the mounting screws are the same distance apart on the short side (DeArmond vs Anti Hum) but the DeArmond had a shorter distance between the mounting screws on the long side.

 

[SFIV1967]

Pressed on the guitar is serial# 44024, but underneath it reads the serial# 21869.

Welcome to LTG! If you contact the one and only Guild expert Hans Moust via his webpage he should be able telling you about the history of your guitar and why the guitar has two serial numbers. Let us know what you learn!
His webpage is:

GuitarsGalore

Ralf

 

[Guildmember]

That is a nice looking Starfire!

I am going to make a random guess that this was an earlier body completed later and restamped. No idea on the scratched out serial number on the label as I can’t imagine it leaving the factory like that. The parts not correct I can see from your photos is the harp tailpiece, bridge and switch tip. As you stated, as a Starfire III it should have a Guildsby and this would have also been paired with the bigsby aluminum rocking bridge. If it was built in 1962 it would have DeArmonds, the curved pickguard, and clear(ish) Guild knobs. The tuners would be the same either year. The pickups, knobs, and pickguard match the later serial number build date. The 44024 serial number should have the peaked headstock rather than the open book. This again leads me to believe it was an earlier body completed later. Here is a Starfire below with serial number 37163 with the peaked headstock. I guess it is possible that somebody swapped out the knobs, pickguard and pickups over the last 60 years but that would not explain the extra serial number. Have you pulled the pickups to see if there is any evidence that other pickups have been mounted in the past? If it originally had DeArmonds you should see extra holes. I just compared two of mine and the mounting screws are the same distance apart on the short side (DeArmond vs Anti Hum) but the DeArmond had a shorter distance between the mounting screws on the long side.

Thank you for the info! I agree that it seems like a mismatched body and neck. Next string change I'll have to poke around to see if anything seems odd with the pickup mounts and cavities. The two overlapping serial numbers combined with the scratched out label seems too sloppy to be something the factory would have done. Thanks again!

 

[Guildmember]

Welcome to LTG! If you contact the one and only Guild expert Hans Moust via his webpage he should be able telling you about the history of your guitar and why the guitar has two serial numbers. Let us know what you learn!
His webpage is:

GuitarsGalore

Ralf

Will do! Thanks for the suggestion, Ralf!

 

[mavuser]

The 44024 serial number should have the peaked headstock rather than the open book.

That serial number could have the open book headstock, i've seen that through 1965 on some Starfires and T-100's.

I believe the guitar was originally a T-100 or started out that way, was never completed, and then wound up getting the SF-3 treatment after the fact. After it left the factory as a SF-3, at some point someone swapped the Guildsby out for a harp

 

[BradHK]

I believe the guitar was originally a T-100 or started out that way

In the first photo from the OP you can see the binding on the back of the body in the cutout. A T-100 should not have binding on the back. But, you never know with Guild!

 

[mavuser]

In the first photo from the OP you can see the binding on the back of the body in the cutout. A T-100 should not have binding on the back. But, you never know with Guild!

good eye! interestingly enough, the early Starfires do not have back binding either, but that is neither here nor there...

Possibly it started life as a SF-1 with single coil DeArmond. Humbuckers were a significant upgrade, at the time.

 

[chazmo]

One theory is that this wasn't factory. Perhaps the guitar was stolen (21869) and someone attempted (badly) to hide that by scratching out the label and branding 44024 on it. Having the brand on the back of the headstock was always a great practice which should never have gone away. Black mark against Tacoma for that!