For us "old" guys..an artist's video at 77 and a question...

204084

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yettoblaster said:
AlohaJoe said:
The Tele probably had the bite to cut through a big band too, and without feedback worries. It may not the the first guitar most players would visualize in a big-band context, but if it works, it works. Ted Green played a lot of wonderful fingerstyle jazz on a Tele.

I've probably shared this story before but it's relevant to this discussion: when I first started out with The Patti MacDonald Orchestra, I was using an old Epiphone Century with a P-90 and a clamp-on DeArmond for a bridge pickup.
Long story short it started me using a Telecaster pretty exclusively for 25 years or so with all such Showtunes/BigBand gigs in large places with Patti's bands.

Yes they 'cut through" but I believe it's partly because the sustain reinforces the tone in the mid and high freqs. Otherwise, a piezo equipped flat-top would work as well, but I don't believe they do. I've heard a flat-top (a Guild even) with Chuck Mangione's band (Chris Falala, who took the chair after Grant Geisman departed with his very bright L5), and didn't think it worked well at all.

Very interesting. yettoblaster, is this The Patti MacDonald Orchestra you speak of ? :

http://www.crosschannelproductions.com/pattisinger.html

Aloha and yetto...and anyone else here...I'm having a problem you may have some answers for. I'm 56 and just recently picked the guitar up after a 25+ year layoff. For the last three months I've concentrated on just learning scales up and down the neck. When I first started this practice routine I expected some pain in the left arm because of the extended layoff but I also expected that to diminish as time went on. Instead it has actually started to become residual for hours and has even worked its way into my left shoulder. I've been researching this subject and there is a lot of information out there as well as opinions about the cause/solution. So I have a few questions:
How long have you been playing?
Have you ever taken a long hiatus from playing?
When you play, how long can you go in one session without having physical problems?
 

AlohaJoe

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204084 said:
How long have you been playing? Have you ever taken a long hiatus from playing? When you play, how long can you go in one session without having physical problems?
I've been playing for (OMG!) 47 years, but you'd never know it to hear me. I was a decent singer once upon a time and primarily used the guitar to accompany myself as one of those singer/songwriters there are so many of so and a band singer, so I'm a pretty solid rhythm player. As the years went by, smoking took its toll (in other words my singing sucks) and I gained an interested in expressing my love of melody another way. I got serious about playing jazz guitar just in the last 5yrs or so. I've never really taken a break. I do have some shoulder issues and minor pains in my wrists and fingers now but I play an hour or so every day. No 4-hour gigs anymore, but 2 is not a real problem.

You mentioned your left shoulder, so assuming you're right handed, you might consider trying to get the neck up a bit. Most of the folks I know who play long hours always use a strap, even when sitting, to help get the neck up so the headstock is closer to the height of your head rather than out where you have to reach for it. I've been told this helps left shoulder issues by Mike Dowling, John Miller and several others... when I remember to do it, it seems much easier on the shoulder.

Probably many others here who know more about this than me but it's a suggestion I'll pass along in the hope that it helps.
 

yettoblaster

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204084 said:
...I expected some pain in the left arm because of the extended layoff but I also expected that to diminish as time went on. Instead it has actually started to become residual for hours and has even worked its way into my left shoulder. I've been researching this subject and there is a lot of information out there as well as opinions about the cause/solution. So I have a few questions:
How long have you been playing?
Have you ever taken a long hiatus from playing?
When you play, how long can you go in one session without having physical problems?

The Patti MacDonald I worked for off and on for about 25 years was on radio in Portland Oregon during WWII and then had a vocal group akin to the McGuire Sisters, Lemon Sisters, etc. Then she toured Hilton Hotel lounges with her husband for 20 years before settling here in Santa Cruz to raise her sons. She operated a voice studio (Susanne Somers, and several other Miss America Pageant franchise series people, were clients). She was a Life Member of the Musicians Union. We did lots of floor shows, recitals, and Miss America Pageant Franchise jobs. The "orchestra" such as it was diminshed as the years went by, finally consisting of a rhythm section (she led from the piano), synthesized horns and strings (her sons), and a bunch of production background vocalists. She died of lung cancer late in '07 after supporting her family exclusively as a musician for about 50 years. She was a kick, could swing hard when she wanted, and always treated her musicians with utmost respect. I miss her and the wonderful pros in the band, like a family.

I have played guitar continuously (time off for boot camp) since 1960.

Pursuant to pain and layoffs: I only laid off for six weeks after carpal tunnel release surgery about 16 years ago and have no trouble at this time playing two back-to-back gigs crosstown from each other (like last Sunday) on 14 gauge TI Be-Bop strings. After not playing at all for the prescribed six weeks recovery, I started back on a Les Paul with VERY light strings, playing only a few minutes, then 15, 30, etc. for about six months, with only some thumb fatigue. After a year, I was back to 100% as if 20 years had been rolled back.

Your pain should be looked into. I had bi-lateral carpal tunnel syndrone which was extremely disabling in my fretting hand after 5 minutes: tingling, numbness, then pain, in short order if I played or even held unto a piece of paper in my left hand! Physical therapy did not help me.
IBprophen allowed me to play a bit but was hard on my system generally. I slept in braces for a while but it progressed to where nothing really helped.

My understanding is that there are nerves in the shoulder, elbow, and wrist (in my case) that can cause a variety of symptoms. A nerve conduction study by an orthopedic specialist would possibly help narrow down your problem. I also had some damage in my elbow and a bit in my shoulders from vocational injuries over time (my day job), but the CTS release surgery was what they decided would most help me, and did (my left hand received the surgery, the right settled down after work modifications, and losing some weight).

If you're playing a lot of drills after a long layoff, especially up the neck on a long scale acoustic (like an F-50), you may have overstressed. Repetitive stress injuries take a lot of care to keep them from going chronic. When I taught (especially adults) I was against drill. It's slow death for adults. I recommend leaving the guitar out, then picking it up whenever you enter that room and "re-remember" what you were working on. My learning curve is so obtuse now drill is entirely counter-productive for me. I get better overnight, magically!

Happy to report that now at age 60, despite the aches and pains (especially financially: I'm retired!) and arthritus, of age, my CTS has completely gone away for some years and I can play without limit (except for my abysmally deficient harmony and counterpoint theory chops).

I will echo the strap issues. I play seated with a strap supporting my guitar. A few weeks ago I sidemanned in a raunchy dance music gig and stood for four sets! My feet were killing me for days afterwards. Never again! :x
 

yettoblaster

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taabru45 said:
I'm just gonna drop a hint about one of the greatest overall guitarists, Jazz, ragtime, classical, folk, the works, many people don't know of him but you'll not find any great guitarist who doesn't take his hat off to Lenny Breau....


Yes indeed, and thanks!
 

204084

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Ross said:
The Toronto Jazz Festival is on now. Last night's feature was the Stanley Clarke quartet. Today's newspaper review said something like "..all 4 musicians were trying to squeeze as many notes into their set as humanly possible.."
Man...I just looked at the line-up...there's 268 artists listed:
http://torontojazz.com/artists
I may try to go next year if it's anything like this year!

AlohaJoe said:
I've been playing for (OMG!) 47 years... I got serious about playing jazz guitar just in the last 5yrs or so. I've never really taken a break.
I'm starting to realize that's a big part of my current problem. I suspect had I never quit playing I wouldn't be having these physical problems.
yettoblaster said:
I have played guitar continuously (time off for boot camp) since 1960.
If you're playing a lot of drills after a long layoff, especially up the neck on a long scale acoustic (like an F-50), you may have overstressed. Repetitive stress injuries take a lot of care to keep them from going chronic. When I taught (especially adults) I was against drill. It's slow death for adults. I recommend leaving the guitar out, then picking it up whenever you enter that room and "re-remember" what you were working on. My learning curve is so obtuse now drill is entirely counter-productive for me. I get better overnight, magically!
I will echo the strap issues. I play seated with a strap supporting my guitar.
I play sitting with the guitar resting on my left leg. Because I'm learning the scales I find I have to look at the neck most of the time...so far anyway. That posture, I know, is not good for my neck as I had herniated discs surgically repaired in 2002, so that's probably causing the shoulder symptons. As for the scale excersizes...I'm not sure what I'll do about the left arm problems yet except that I'll limit the duration of the practice. I may have to re-examine my goal of wanting to be able to jazz and go back to what I was doing when I quit years ago...mainly finger-picking arrangements of all types of genres.
Thanks for the feedback. :)
 

yettoblaster

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204084 said:
...I may have to re-examine my goal of wanting to be able to jazz and go back to what I was doing when I quit years ago...

If you love the jazz genre then it can be approached any number of ways. I know guys who approach the guitar neck for jazz completely differently than I do.

Perhaps a chordal approach (with finger style) by learning harmonized seventh scale theory (the next musical theory step after triad theory) could help you stay in the hunt. I know guys who play from a chordal context when they improvise their solos. It's always refreshing to me. Charlie Christian comes to mind. Many of his arpeggios and solo lines are chord shapes.

Guitar and music (and the jazz genre) are lifelong pursuits. There will always be greater and lesser guitarists than myself. Django Reinhardt overcame disabilities to forge his own unique style of playing.

Dan Gottlieb is a paralyzed man who authored a book "Letters to Sam," and another, "The Wisdom of Sam." His attitude towards his disability is inspiring. There is a Fresh Air (PBS) interview somewhere with Terry Gross on web you might search out for encouragement.
 

204084

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yettoblaster said:
Perhaps a chordal approach (with finger style) by learning harmonized seventh scale theory (the next musical theory step after triad theory) could help you stay in the hunt. I know guys who play from a chordal context when they improvise their solos. It's always refreshing to me. Charlie Christian comes to mind. Many of his arpeggios and solo lines are chord shapes.
Nice idea. Thanks. Funny how I can play chords up and down the neck for a long time even now w/o the problems I run into when trying to do single note lines for long periods. I may even take up the spoon guitar :mrgreen: :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCKTeRW3OhQ&feature=player_embedded
or I could just do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnUwA6c67k
 

AlohaJoe

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I hope you keep working on it. If possible, you might consider a visit to a Physical Therapist who can suggest exercises and/or approaches that are specific to your issues. When I first started having shoulder (rotator cuff) issues I thought it was the end of playing drums, but with some great suggestions from a PT I was able to re-arrange the set and keep working.
 

taabru45

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AlohaJoe said:
I hope you keep working on it. If possible, you might consider a visit to a Physical Therapist who can suggest exercises and/or approaches that are specific to your issues. When I first started having shoulder (rotator cuff) issues I thought it was the end of playing drums, but with some great suggestions from a PT I was able to re-arrange the set and keep working.

:? :? I thought you played guitar Joe...did you ever try shorter sets?? :roll: :lol: :roll: :wink: Steffan
 

AlohaJoe

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taabru45 said:
I thought you played guitar Joe...did you ever try shorter sets?? :roll: :lol: :roll: :wink: Steffan
No, but I tried a different set of shorts...
 

kitniyatran

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AlohaJoe said:
... I thought it was the end of playing drums, but with some great suggestions from a PT I was able to re-arrange the set and keep working.
Sorry to hear that.



:p :p
 

adorshki

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204084 said:
I play sitting with the guitar resting on my left leg. Because I'm learning the scales I find I have to look at the neck most of the time...so far anyway. That posture, I know, is not good for my neck as I had herniated discs surgically repaired in 2002, so that's probably causing the shoulder symptons. As for the scale excersizes...I'm not sure what I'll do about the left arm problems yet except that I'll limit the duration of the practice.
This is a mite late and may sound a bit trite becasue it's so basic, but I never forgot what my very first teacher taught about the ergonomics of the instrument: that it was designed to be played in the classical position (left leg raised on a perch) for the most accurate and stress free playing. I still do it, and one of my pet searches over the years has been to find "the perfect playing stool", that allows me to brace the ball of my left foot far enough back so I'm sitting just right without having to waste any effort on a poorly placed or heighted footstool. Having the neck at that good 45 degree or so angle, and braced there between your legs, brings the rest of the joints into a good alignment especially for scales. I'm thinking also you wouldn't be turning your neck as far. Anyway just tossing it out there in case it helps.
 

204084

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adorshki said:
Having the neck at that good 45 degree or so angle, and braced there between your legs, brings the rest of the joints into a good alignment especially for scales. I'm thinking also you wouldn't be turning your neck as far. Anyway just tossing it out there in case it helps.
I'm trying to work on that 45 degree angle. I haven't done that in the past. Thanks.
 

204084

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204084 said:
yettoblaster said:
Perhaps a chordal approach (with finger style) by learning harmonized seventh scale theory (the next musical theory step after triad theory) could help you stay in the hunt. I know guys who play from a chordal context when they improvise their solos. It's always refreshing to me. Charlie Christian comes to mind. Many of his arpeggios and solo lines are chord shapes.
Nice idea. Was watching this and thinking about what you said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djhBVRK4zLk&feature=related
 

yettoblaster

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I was thinking more along the lines of Texas/Oklahoma players like Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis, who derive many of their single lines from chords. Now they do also use scale patterns, but if you watch Herb Ellis closely in this example and others, notice how a chord shape is never very far away from wherever he is on the neck. In fact he often will grab a nearby chord to reprise just where in the changes he is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TAdOyX- ... re=related

I love Jim Hall and always appreciate what he brings to the party, but I have no idea how to interpret the lines he plays. Makes me want to quit altogether! His approach comes from a vast wealth of harmonic knowledge that I love exposure to, but cannot fathom where his lines come from or where he's going.

With a real bluesy player like Herb Ellis or Kenny Burrell, it's still awesome, but they at least leave a trail of crumbs to follow! :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taeaLY3K ... re=related
 
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