For us "old" guys..an artist's video at 77 and a question...

[204084]

I've been looking at some jazz videos and ran across this one from a cat named Jim Hall who was 77 (I think) at the time the video was made. I find inspiration in watching people this young 8) making beautiful music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd0ap9_cJaQ

My question is about the thickness of the guitars used in the following video...a close-up can be seen at 3:19:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn3obXXU ... =1&index=3

those guitars look awfully thick to me. I was wondering if anyone knows why they made them so thick or deep...whatever the correct terminology is. These things look thicker than my F-50. I know this is a site devoted to Guild but I feel really comfortable with you guys and a smaller group like what we have here makes me feel a little more comfortable asking what may be some dumb questions.

 

[West R Lee]

I'm not giving you a hard time 2, it must be my having been raised a bubba, but jazz always sounds to me like a bunch of guys that can't find the key or the notes....and just randomly throw something out there. . Do keep in mind though that folks in this neck of the woods have no "breeding", but do have inbreeding. The only "class" we knew was the 2nd grade.

West :lol:

 

[204084]

hahaha...as some of my friends say: "lemme know when they quit tuning up and start to play"

 

[AlohaJoe]

Jim Hall is 80 now and still going strong. He released a new album in '08 with one of his students, Bill Frissel. It looks like he is playing a Gibson ES-175 in this clip. http://www.archtop.com/ac_53ES_175.html The 175s have a 16" body and I think a 3 1/2" thick lower bout.
- Joe
ps - There are no dumb questions, nobody knows everything (except maybe Hans :lol: ).

 

[AlohaJoe]

I'm not giving you a hard time 2, it must be my having been raised a bubba, but jazz always sounds to me like a bunch of guys that can't find the key or the notes....and just randomly throw something out there.

I like Jazz, West, but I understand exactly what you mean... I love the 'early' Jazz from Dixieland through the great Jazz standards of the 30s and 40s (+ Blues, Country, Western Swing etc.). I'm sure that the 'Modern Jazz' guys know the notes and the keys better than most of us, but it seems like something important was lost in the 50s and 60s when chord changes became platforms for improvisation rather than support for a melody. Popular Jazz became an intellectual exercise. They quit playing for dancers, started playing for sitting audiences and in the process lost a crisp beat, a clear melody and the attention of popular music audiences.

A great player (a Texan by the way) once told me "the melody IS the song... have you ever heard anybody whistling the changes?"

I appreciate what those cats can do, but I'd rather listen to Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore.

 

[yettoblaster]

...I was wondering if anyone knows why they made them so thick or deep...

In the first clip it looks like he's playing his signature model by Roger Sadowsky. It's modeled after his longtime Gibson ES-175.

Jazz archtops tend to be the thickness of acoustic guitars because traditionally they were acoustic archtops with magnetic pickups added, back when Charlie Christian first started making electric guitar popular with an ES-150 Gibson, which was an early production model electric guitar based on a 16" archtop acoustic.

Later on Leo Fender made Hawaiian electric "tabletop" guitars and then figured out how to easily manufacture solidbody "Spanish" style guitars. Once the magnetic pickup is involved the shape (or even lack of shape) isn't as important anymore.

I think a lot of jazz guys stay with the full hollowbody archtop out of tradition's sake, and they're used to that size and ergonomics.

I prefer them because they have enough sound unplugged to be heard while practicing, and I like the immediate response (vibration) in my chest while playing a gig: even if the amp is equal or louder than the acoustic response.

 

[adorshki]

I think a lot of jazz guys stay with the full hollowbody archtop out of tradition's sake, and they're used to that size and ergonomics.
I prefer them because they have enough sound unplugged to be heard while practicing, and I like the immediate response (vibration) in my chest while playing a gig: even if the amp is equal or louder than the acoustic response.

Adding to those observations: I just don't think Wes Montgomery wuold have sounded the same on a solid body. I think the hollow body has a special tone. Example from a different school of music is Jerry Garcia. Definitely a tonal difference from the early Starfire years to the later Strat years of the early '70's. A lot more "wood" to the tone. Didn't really notice it till a couple of years ago when I was listening to something without knowing what the year was, and thinking to myself, "Man that's really woody, I bet that's the Starfire". Quick check of credits confirmed it was a '67 show (The Longshoremen's Hall show in LA) for which pictures confirm it's a Starfire....

 

[yettoblaster]

...something important was lost in the 50s and 60s when chord changes became platforms for improvisation rather than support for a melody. Popular Jazz became an intellectual exercise. They quit playing for dancers, started playing for sitting audiences and in the process lost a crisp beat, a clear melody and the attention of popular music audiences...

I heartily agree.

Jim Hall kinda followed the earlier mold of Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt, as did Barney Kessell, Wes Montgomery, etc.

Most "jazz" oriented music schools like Berkeley, et al, teach the scale/chord approach pioneered by Charlie Parker, Diz, etc. during the Be-Bop era. I'm still trying to get that stuff OUT of my playing! :roll:

A lot of the guys I like came from Oklahoma and Texas, but I'm not willing to move there for a better influence!

 

[taabru45]

I'm just gonna drop a hint about one of the greatest overall guitarists, Jazz, ragtime, classical, folk, the works, many people don't know of him but you'll not find any great guitarist who doesn't take his hat off to Lenny Breau....Steffan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZKUcGTm ... re=related
Can you spot the Guild?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZKUcGTm ... re=related

search.php?keywords=lenny+breau&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

 

[204084]

I've been looking at some jazz videos and ran across this one from a cat named Jim Hall who was 77 (I think) at the time the video was made. I find inspiration in watching people this young 8) making beautiful music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd0ap9_cJaQ

I just want to thank you guys for putting up with me since I joined this site. I just got home from an evening listening to a local jazz group whose leader is an 82 year old sax player. He is great....there are no other words to describe this guy. He (the sax player (Ed Dix)) knows Jim Hall and is friends with him. I didn't know that 'till I talked to him during their break tonight.Sorry I wasn't here to respond to all the gracious comments. The point I was trying to make about the first part of my post was these guys who are as old or older than me, and they can do what it takes PHYSICALLY, makes me blush when I feel the pain I feel now trying to get back into playing the guitar. They inspire me as do all of you who welcomed me so warmly in this forum. So let me say again....thank you for putting up with my dumb a$$.
When I first decided to start playing again I spent a coupla months learning a David Bromberg finger-picking blues song by Blind Blake named "Early This Morning". I figured out all the licks and then remembered one of the reasons I had quit playing all those years ago. I didn't UNDERSTAND what I was playing back then ( I could finger-pick the most complex rags from tab) but I didn't know why that music sounded so good to me. I have no formal training what-so-ever.I didn't want to get back to the same place that made lay my guitar down so I started playing scales up and down the neck. That's basically all I've done for several months. So when I talk about what inspires me and the pain....lol...forgive me. Try playing chromatic and major scales non-stop on a guitar for hours and you know what I speak of. And these guys that are so much older than me...what can I say....when my arm cramps up and my elbow hurts so bad that I don't wanna go on....I turn on the puter and watch some of these guys.
Many thanks again for being a soundboard for me. I'm trying and I'm learning so please bear with me for a short time anyway. Thanks West, AlohaJoe, yettoblaster, adhorshki, and taabru45 for your comments.
I was following a youtube trail tonight listening to Jim Hall and stumbled across something with Cream's drummer (Ginger Baker) and Bill Frisell and thought I would post it in closing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QulP-tmf ... re=related

 

[AlohaJoe]

My wife says YouTube is like crack. :lol:

 

[204084]

I agree AlohaJoe :

Sting - Bill Frisell - Dave Sanborn - Don Alias - Aint No Sunshine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC2fP...eature=related

sorry...got a little off track....never got around to the 2nd part of my post about the thickness of these jazz guitars

 

[Brad Little]

These things look thicker than my F-50.

The ES-175 is 3 3/8" deep. F-50R over 4". I was surprised when I got my Artist Award that it wasn't as deep as my F-50, not many guitars are.
Brad

 

[Ross]

....jazz always sounds to me like a bunch of guys that can't find the key or the notes....and just randomly throw something out there.

.... I understand exactly what you mean... it seems like something important was lost in the 50s and 60s when chord changes became platforms for improvisation rather than support for a melody..... lost a crisp beat, a clear melody and the attention of popular music audiences.

The Toronto Jazz Festival is on now. Last night's feature was the Stanley Clarke quartet. Today's newspaper review said something like "..all 4 musicians were trying to squeeze as many notes into their set as humanly possible.."

Veer alert: Today a statue of Oscar Peterson will be unveiled at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa (by the Queen, no less). I grew up listening to OP, and he defines jazz for me.
He's another example of a player who aged gracefully. When OP suffered a stroke in the early 1990s, he feared that he wouldn't play again. Although he had recovered well by the mid-90s, he was apprehensive about his abilities. Finally, OP's old friend Dave Young packed his bass out to OP's home, dragged Oscar to the piano and made him jam. That was the turning point, and OP went on to play for another 10 years.

 

[yettoblaster]

...Finally, OP's old friend Dave Young packed his bass out to OP's home, dragged Oscar to the piano and made him jam. That was the turning point, and OP went on to play for another 10 years.

Now THAT'S what a friend does!

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Ross]

...Finally, OP's old friend Dave Young packed his bass out to OP's home, dragged Oscar to the piano and made him jam. That was the turning point, and OP went on to play for another 10 years.

Now THAT'S what a friend does!

Thanks for sharing that.

Maybe "dragged" is an exaggeration - OP was a large man!

Here's a newspaper article about the statue. Oscar's pose invites passersby to sit on the piano bench with him.

http://www.thestar.com/article/830216--knelman-oscar-peterson-s-piano-lives-on-in-ottawa

 

[204084]

These things look thicker than my F-50.

The ES-175 is 3 3/8" deep. F-50R over 4". I was surprised when I got my Artist Award that it wasn't as deep as my F-50, not many guitars are.
Brad

Thanks Brad....you made me go measure my F-50...lol. I talked to the guitar player Tuesday night (he plays a Fender hollowbody with the jazz band) and he somewhat explained the tonal benefits of the bigger hollowbodies. I guess I had always assumed that with today's electronics that the need for the big hollowbodies would be very diminished. He also talked about how he prefers the hollowbody when playing through some effects pedals when he's shredding blues and rock.

 

[yettoblaster]

...I had always assumed that with today's electronics that the need for the big hollowbodies would be very diminished...

There's a combination of factors to various guitar's tone that include how much "give" the body presents to the vibrating strings vs how much energy is absorbed by the structure of said body.

I've tried to emulate this with various bridge and saddle materials on solidbody guitars.

Actually a stock Telecaster style guitar does as well sometimes just because Leo Fender placed the neck pickup right in a "null" of string vibration (especially for some notes).

I'm not entirely sure how "thick" a hollowbody needs to be: a Byrdland sounds as jazzy as an L5, to me.

There comes a point when it all becomes nuance, and a lot of nuance is lost when the volume exceeds a certain level. Suffice it to say I used Tele's for decades on BigBand jobs in big rooms, and I thought the sound was jazzy and full, and carried all the way to the cheap seats. :idea:

 

[AlohaJoe]

There comes a point when it all becomes nuance, and a lot of nuance is lost when the volume exceeds a certain level. Suffice it to say I used Tele's for decades on BigBand jobs in big rooms, and I thought the sound was jazzy and full, and carried all the way to the cheap seats. :idea:

The Tele probably had the bite to cut through a big band too, and without feedback worries. It may not the the first guitar most players would visualize in a big-band context, but if it works, it works. Ted Green played a lot of wonderful fingerstyle jazz on a Tele.

 

[yettoblaster]

The Tele probably had the bite to cut through a big band too, and without feedback worries. It may not the the first guitar most players would visualize in a big-band context, but if it works, it works. Ted Green played a lot of wonderful fingerstyle jazz on a Tele.

Ed Bickert played a stock Tele for jazz a long time before he put a humbucker on it.

Cutting through is a funny thing. We think of it as midrange or trebly but that's just part of it. There's also something to be said for sustain.

I've probably shared this story before but it's relevant to this discussion: when I first started out with The Patti MacDonald Orchestra, I was using an old Epiphone Century with a P-90 and a clamp-on DeArmond for a bridge pickup. Soon after one day I had a single note line I was supposed to play at rehearsal to cue a tap dancer to quit dancing and get back to the mic to sing the last verse (of Puttin' On The Ritz, if memory serves). She kept missing the cue because the sound of my archtop just was rattling around in the orchestra pit and she couldn't hear it, no matter how much bridge pickup treble I put on it.

Finally another production singer handed me a Tokai "Breezysound" (tele clone) he had brought along for some reason and said, "Here, try this." Problem was solved instantly!

Long story short it started me using a Telecaster pretty exclusively for 25 years or so with all such Showtunes/BigBand gigs in large places with Patti's bands.

Yes they 'cut through" but I believe it's partly because the sustain reinforces the tone in the mid and high freqs. Otherwise, a piezo equipped flat-top would work as well, but I don't believe they do. I've heard a flat-top (a Guild even) with Chuck Mangione's band (Chris Falala, who took the chair after Grant Geisman departed with his very bright L5), and didn't think it worked well at all.