Fender, some thoughts

[Dr. Spivey]

Frono, sounds more like educated speculation than ignorant speculation. The scenario you described sounds plausible to me. I just wish I'd been there to do some dumpster diving, sounds like it would have been worth the drive

:? :? :? But what possible economic rationale might there be for destroying "hundreds of finished" Guild guitars? Those are the words of Workedinwesterly. Heck, Hans has told me he dug disgarded parts out of the dumpster at Westerly. Doesn't so much sound like a lack of respect to me either, just pure stupidity!

West

Heck West, I've seen stupidity like that at work many times. 2 years ago I worked in a fabrication shop that was doing 8 million a year in sales but barely turning a profit. The owner hired an "operations manager" from a large well known manufacturer. This genius filled 3 40yard dumpsters with new metal. Sold it to the scrap man. Talked about "lean manufacturing" and "just in time" inventory management. Theory was, we would just order metal as we need it, and free up all that space, which would make us more efficient. Reality was the metal suppliers don't play that game. So half of us spent most of our time going in circles, starting and stopping on jobs, for lack of material. I ignored this as long as I could, an then found a real job. I've worked for bigger companies that did stupid on a much bigger scale.

 

[West R Lee]

Oh believe me, after over 30 years working for a large company, I've seen my share of flippant waste. But my gosh, a guitar maunufacturer just $hitcanning hundreds of brand new guitars. Wouldn't that be like GM driving thousands of new cars into a compactor? Maybe not a good analogy in this day and time.

West

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Sometimes what seems like waste to us workin' stiffs really does make good business sense. Sometimes it's just smoke and mirrors from incompetent management while they fumble around looking for real solutions to problems. Throwing out raw materials that will be used anyway, or salable finished product, is a crock. Those guitars could have been sold to dealers at cost or even a bit less, to get more Guilds on the shop walls. Or am I missing something?

 

[fronobulax]

Those guitars could have been sold to dealers at cost or even a bit less, to get more Guilds on the shop walls. Or am I missing something?

Just supposin'

I have a finished guitar. But it is a model I do not want to make any more. It is of a model that is not, or will not, be in any future catalog. If I use my normal dealer network then I have all sorts of potential problems: pricing, warranty, support, "dilution of the brand", etc. So I talk to my liquidator (the same folks who, a few years in the future will flood eBay with my refurbished seconds from Corona) but there is no interest. Perhaps they don't exist yet. Perhaps they don't think they can make any money refurbishing and selling orphaned Guilds. So now I'm faced with the choice of storage or destruction and I pick the latter.

Not saying any of this makes emotional sense - there's a reason why there is a stereotype of a big, heartless corporation - but it could make economic sense.

 

[danerectal]

So now I'm faced with the choice of storage or destruction and I pick the latter.

Didn't a lot of musical instrument companies fund, support, donate to, etc. school related music programs? I remember hearing about Fender, specifically, donating thousands of guitars to schools for one such program. Would that not have been a PR shot in the arm on top of being a viable means of disposal? This only raises further questions.

Maybe what we need to do is flood the Fender forums with our organized opinions. I would guess they get a bit more attention than a quality, unsanctioned forum like we use.

 

[Willy]

Re: WiW comments about trashed neck and body parts - I was unable to locate that thread, would someone be kind enough to link me to it?

I worked for Guild in '75 & '76. It was common practice at that time to destroy product that didn't measure up to our standards, it didn't matter whether it was a neck blank or a finished instrument, it went to the bandsaw. But that was to protect the quality of the brand by making sure nothing was on the market with the Guild name that didn't deserve it.

That said, sounds like that's not what WiW was talking about, but haven't read the post so I'm curious...

...link me to it please!

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Those guitars could have been sold to dealers at cost or even a bit less, to get more Guilds on the shop walls. Or am I missing something?

Just supposin'

I have a finished guitar. But it is a model I do not want to make any more. It is of a model that is not, or will not, be in any future catalog. If I use my normal dealer network then I have all sorts of potential problems: pricing, warranty, support, "dilution of the brand", etc. So I talk to my liquidator (the same folks who, a few years in the future will flood eBay with my refurbished seconds from Corona) but there is no interest. Perhaps they don't exist yet. Perhaps they don't think they can make any money refurbishing and selling orphaned Guilds. So now I'm faced with the choice of storage or destruction and I pick the latter.

Not saying any of this makes emotional sense - there's a reason why there is a stereotype of a big, heartless corporation - but it could make economic sense.

That sure is one possible scenario, frono. I hate to sound so negative in my initial post, but that's the way things are looking to me.

The thing is FMIC doesn't seem to care that musicians are passionate about their instruments. They need to consider that as part of their business strategy. Look at what Chris Martin has done. By his own admission, he isn't a guitar player, and knew nothing about the family business when he stepped into it. He figured it out and it didn't take 15 years.


Interesting to note, workedinwesterly has deleted his posts from Frosty's thread. Wonder what's up with that? :?

 

[West R Lee]

So now I'm faced with the choice of storage or destruction and I pick the latter.

Didn't a lot of musical instrument companies fund, support, donate to, etc. school related music programs? I remember hearing about Fender, specifically, donating thousands of guitars to schools for one such program. Would that not have been a PR shot in the arm on top of being a viable means of disposal? This only raises further questions.

Maybe what we need to do is flood the Fender forums with our organized opinions. I would guess they get a bit more attention than a quality, unsanctioned forum like we use.

Seems like a few years ago, a few of the members here at LTG were booted off the Fender forum for voicing their opinion.

West

 

[chazmo]

Re: WiW comments about trashed neck and body parts - I was unable to locate that thread, would someone be kind enough to link me to it?

I worked for Guild in '75 & '76. It was common practice at that time to destroy product that didn't measure up to our standards, it didn't matter whether it was a neck blank or a finished instrument, it went to the bandsaw. But that was to protect the quality of the brand by making sure nothing was on the market with the Guild name that didn't deserve it.

That said, sounds like that's not what WiW was talking about, but haven't read the post so I'm curious...

...link me to it please!

Willy, WiW has deleted his posts in the thread in question (I'm not sure why). That was in the Connecticut D-55 thread started by frosty. Sorry.

 

[Graham]

Seems like a few years ago, a few of the members here at LTG were booted off the Fender forum for voicing their opinion.

West

I think a few of us were booted for voicing our concern for Hans being booted for having a link to his site.

With all of the knowledge that Hans brings and he never posts anything but facts. He doesn't engage in speculation or start rumours. It's just facts that we all can use, if we wish.

He has posted a couple of funnies, so I think we're starting to wear him down a bit because anyone that has met him knows he has a very good sense of humour.

Is that enough smoke? :shock:

 

[West R Lee]

Seems like a few years ago, a few of the members here at LTG were booted off the Fender forum for voicing their opinion.

West

I think a few of us were booted for voicing our concern for Hans being booted for having a link to his site.

With all of the knowledge that Hans brings and he never posts anything but facts. He doesn't engage in speculation or start rumours. It's just facts that we all can use, if we wish.

He has posted a couple of funnies, so I think we're starting to wear him down a bit because anyone that has met him knows he has a very good sense of humour.

Is that enough smoke? :shock:

:wink: Bucking for a free autographed copy of Volume II there are ya Grammy? :lol: No, all very true. And anyone that knws him knows that Hans is extremely careful not to put out inaccurate information.

West

 

[fungusyoung]

Hell, it's even a good thread 30 months later. And Fender is still so reprehensible. Yeah, that's a cheap shot.

Thanks for the memory, Grahamster.

Yeah, but I'd like to retract my statements about Fender electrics being reasonably priced. 30 months ago was 2 or 3 price increases ago, including the recent one they instituted that was between a 20- 40% hike (depending on the item) that they put through in February.

I have virtually no confidence or respect in FMIC anymore. Luckily, given the assortment of gear I already own and all of the competitors that now offer better quality products often at lower prices, I have absolutely no need for them now.

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Yeah, but I'd like to retract my statements about Fender electrics being reasonably priced. 30 months ago was 2 or 3 price increases ago, including the recent one they instituted that was between a 20- 40% hike (depending on the item) that they put through in February.

I bet the folks at G&L are grateful.

 

[dane]

I have to admit that I’m not as up on things as many of you seem to be. That’s one of the main reasons I love coming here. So please keep that in mind. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a Fender acoustic guitar. The shops I go to just don’t carry them, so I’m asking this out of complete ignorance. Has Fender been playing around with the quality of there guitars, trying to cheapen up production cost and yet sell them at a quality price like they appear to be doing with some of the Guilds? I guess I’m just wondering if they’re playing it that way across the board.

I am rather sad to find that some of the Guilds are being made overseas. I have seen this practice in other industries that I have worked in. Too often the next step is putting the screws to the dealers of the product, and selling to the mass merchants like Wal Mart or Sears. John Deere is a good example of a company that did just that. I’m not saying that you will ever be able to go to Kmart and buy a Guild, but if everything is being driven solely in the name of maximum profit, I shutter to think of what the future might bring.

 

[Jeff]

.....putting the screws to the dealers of the product, and selling to the mass merchants like Wal Mart or Sears. ..everything is being driven solely in the name of maximum profit, ....

Yup, here a while back Taylor Guitars showed up in the Costco catalogue, I overheard a conversation in the local music store concerning the issue, shop has 20 - 30 Taylors in inventory most times.

Later I heard it was a mistake. They must have corrected it, haven't seen any Taylors at Costco lately.

Walmart...thbbbtt !!!

 

[chazmo]

Jeff, Costco? Really? I don't think so. That sounds like a bitter rumor.

But, Taylor has gone along with BestBuy, who've (oddly) been putting acoustic guitar showrooms in their stores. Not all, but many. Our neighborhood BestBuy doesn't have this, but some do -- at least according to posts on the AGF.

 

[dklsplace]

Seems like a few years ago, a few of the members here at LTG were booted off the Fender forum for voicing their opinion.

Or for no apparent reason whatsoever.....