F-512 (rosewood): new vs. vintage?

[PH_Graphics]

With all of the talk about Westerly builds vs. Corona builds vs. Tacoma builds vs. New Hartford builds, I decided I needed to do some homework and research the years that 512's came out of each plant.

More on that tomorrow, but the first thing that jumped out at me was an oddity about my own guitar. The serial number PDF at Guildguitars.com shows that my F412 was from 1968, the first year of production. (OB101 to OB110 that year; mine is OB109.) In addition, the history section at Guildguitars.com says that production moved from Hoboken to Westerly in 1967. But the label in my guitar is the beige oval with the Guild G-shield at the top and

GUILD GUITARS, INC.
Hoboken, New Jersey
U.S.A.​

at the bottom.

If production moved from Hoboken to Westerly in '67 but the first F412 weren't released until '68, do guitars like mine have the Hoboken label because their construction was started in Hoboken and then finished in Westerly? If so, is there any information (or even opinions) on the comparison in build quality and/or sound between the all-Westerly built F412's and the Hoboken/Westerly ones?

 

[GardMan]

Hans can tell you when your specific F412 was made... but has said in the past the Guild continued to use the Hoboken labels even after the move to Westerly. I don't think there were guitars started in Hoboken but finished in Westerly, but some Westerly-builds might have had some pieces that were made in Hoboken.

 

[beecee]

Perhaps this could help....


https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?202048-2010-F-512

 

[Rayk]

Ugh , will you all stop talking about 512's already ! Your killing me ! Lol

 

[beecee]

hehehehehe....for YOU Ray I'd do the installment plan!!

 

[fronobulax]

Hans can tell you when your specific F412 was made... but has said in the past the Guild continued to use the Hoboken labels even after the move to Westerly. I don't think there were guitars started in Hoboken but finished in Westerly, but some Westerly-builds might have had some pieces that were made in Hoboken.

Basically this.

There were a couple years of overlapping production but only Hans has a handle on which models were likely made where. Hoboken labels were used in Westerly for Westerly made instruments until they ran out. I think we have seen Hoboken labels as late as 1970 which is definitely after the time when all guitar production had been relocated.

 

[steverok]

I am currently contemplating pulling the trigger on a new, Oxnard F512, to keep me company when the world shuts down. I came here to have people to blame for my purchase lol.

 

[chazmo]

^ Definitely. Blame LTG. It'll be a good kind of blame, Steve.

 

[Cougar]

I am currently contemplating pulling the trigger on a new, Oxnard F512....

I cannot think of anything better to do in the circumstance! Definitely a smart move! :encouragement:

 

[steverok]

It would be my 3rd Guild 12-er. Is it too extravagant ? An embarrassment of riches ?? Note I am asking you all to be my enablers.

In seriousness, I've never actually played an F512. Not sure how it would compare to the JF65-12 that I already own. I like that the new ones are equipped with the LR Baggs Anthem, and, apparently, have slimmer neck profiles.

 

[adorshki]

...and I started this tread to try to determine if I should make that drive ONLY for vintage 512's, ONLY for newer 512's, or for either.

OK that's one's easy and I think you've figured out it's "either".
:friendly_wink:

That comment got the attention of this 68-year old with arthritic hands. That fact alone might get me to switch.

Remember, single trusses brought in sometime in '07 in Tacoma, 2nd half seems to be the timing "IIRC".
If in doubt, just ask seller to check under the TRC.

If production moved from Hoboken to Westerly in '67 but the first F412 weren't released until '68, do guitars like mine have the Hoboken label because their construction was started in Hoboken and then finished in Westerly? If so, is there any information (or even opinions) on the comparison in build quality and/or sound between the all-Westerly built F412's and the Hoboken/Westerly ones?

Like Frono said, the Hoboken labels continued to be used for a while after the relocation, but in your case what's important to know is that both plants were operational for an overlap of time and that the full move to Westerly wasn't completed until '69.
I'd be hard pressed to search for the reference posts right now but seem to recall that electric and 12-string production was among the last to relocate so I'd suspect your '68 is a genuine Hoboken built.
Early Westerly production is said to have carried on the Hoboken light-build style of construction.

 

[chazmo]

It would be my 3rd Guild 12-er. Is it too extravagant ? An embarrassment of riches ?? Note I am asking you all to be my enablers.

In seriousness, I've never actually played an F512. Not sure how it would compare to the JF65-12 that I already own. I like that the new ones are equipped with the LR Baggs Anthem, and, apparently, have slimmer neck profiles.

As an owner of seven 12-string acoustics, Steve, the answer is "no."

 

[Rayk]

I am currently contemplating pulling the trigger on a new, Oxnard F512, to keep me company when the world shuts down. I came here to have people to blame for my purchase lol.

Best line yet ! Well done sir !

 

[JohnW63]

If I get stuck at home, like steverok, I'll finally have time to learn how to use a loopper I bought last year.

 

[PH_Graphics]

OK that's one's easy and I think you've figured out it's "either".
:friendly_wink:

Yes, it's pretty clear that on the newer vs. vintage issue each has it's pro and cons, but no one has advised me to avoid one or the other. I guess, just because of what I said earlier about the sense of stewardship in owning a vintage instrument having possibly become a part of my self-image, I'm leaning toward vintage.

On the other hand, the only 512 I know of within a 3 hour drive right now is a 2019. I have a feeling I'm going to make that drive in the next week or so and see where that takes me.

 

[PH_Graphics]

but in your case what's important to know is that both plants were operational for an overlap of time and that the full move to Westerly wasn't completed until '69.
I'd be hard pressed to search for the reference posts right now but seem to recall that electric and 12-string production was among the last to relocate so I'd suspect your '68 is a genuine Hoboken built.
Early Westerly production is said to have carried on the Hoboken light-build style of construction.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you. That's what I was looking to find out but should have spelled out more carefully. I was curious whether it was a matter of moving EVERYTHING from Hoboken to Westerly on say, a Friday, and then picking up production in Westerly on Monday or if there was that overlap you referenced. The overlap certainly makes more sense, but I didn't want to just assume that was the case.

 

[adorshki]

I guess, just because of what I said earlier about the sense of stewardship in owning a vintage instrument having possibly become a part of my self-image, I'm leaning toward vintage.

I get that too, to tell you the truth, although I just had the realization that odds are I'm unlikely to make the 50-year milestone with any of mine..but at least I owned 'em all from new....do I get a handicap for that?
:emmersed:

 

[PH_Graphics]

From everything I've heard and read, both here and other places, the F512 and the JF55-12 were pretty much the same guitar. Not that I'm likely to come across one in my search, but according to the Guildguitars.com serial number PDF file, for one year, in 1987, they listed a JF65-12 and a JF65R-12, but not a JF55-12. Might the R in the JF65R-12 model number that year have referred to rosewood, making it the first of what would later be called the JF55-12?

 

[chazmo]

PH, I think that's exactly what happened. Funny that currently in the model line they've chosen to designate the maple version as F-55 maple and rosewood is just F-55, and F-512 maple vs. just F-512 (which is rosewood).

I don't think a JF-65-R-12 designation lasted long, PH.

 

[adorshki]

Thank you. That's what I was looking to find out but should have spelled out more carefully. I was curious whether it was a matter of moving EVERYTHING from Hoboken to Westerly on say, a Friday, and then picking up production in Westerly on Monday or if there was that overlap you referenced. The overlap certainly makes more sense, but I didn't want to just assume that was the case.

The most reliable actual timing I've seen is from Hans Moust's The Guild Guitar Book in which he says the move was complete "by 1969".
It could be interpreted as "by the end of '69" but suspect it was intended to mean "by the start of 1969" as that would be the more correct semantic interpretation in formal English.

From everything I've heard and read, both here and other places, the F512 and the JF55-12 were pretty much the same guitar. Not that I'm likely to come across one in my search, but according to the Guildguitars.com serial number PDF file, for one year, in 1987, they listed a JF65-12 and a JF65R-12, but not a JF55-12. Might the R in the JF65R-12 model number that year have referred to rosewood, making it the first of what would later be called the JF55-12?

PH, I think that's exactly what happened. Funny that currently in the model line they've chosen to designate the maple version as F-55 maple and rosewood is just F-55, and F-512 maple vs. just F-512 (which is rosewood).
I don't think a JF-65-R-12 designation lasted long, PH.

Yeah I've seen that one myself (in the records) and there are several similar "anomalies" around that whole family including the JF30's and -12's at the same time.
Recently wondered if it may have been related to the fairly rapid changes of ownership from Avnet to the "Gruhn Consortium" (Guild Music Corporation) to US Music Corporation during the period.
Gruhn is "to blame" for instituting the new numbering system and for sure we're aware of at least minor construction differences** in the "new model numbers" compared to the old but it seems like that alone wouldn't explain the relative chaos in the model number/serial number that extended even to the labels in that period, as well. (Including the labels that got written with the "in-house" model codes like "F60"'s)
**One member in England for example has explained that he had an actual JF65R that was slightly shallower than the later JF65 and has been on the hunt for another ever since.
He thought the tone of the JF65R was a preferable to JF65's he's tried since then.