F-512 (rosewood): new vs. vintage?

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I've owned since the late 70's a 1968 F-412, and I love it. About a year ago, though, I began playing with some friends who own high-end Taylor and Martin rosewood guitars (6-string, not 12), and I'm becoming very fond of the tone from those guitars. Having a vintage Guild 12 I guess I've just assumed that if I were move to a Guild rosewood 12, that I would want to find a vintage 512 or JF55. Clearly, I'd want to play the new guitar first, and I've been watching the local (Milwaukee) area, but only 1 vintage 512 (a '76) has come up for sale within easy driving distance, and that one sold less than 12 hours after it first appeared on Reverb, so I never got to play it. Now I see a 2019 F-512 up for sale at a store about 90 minutes away, and that's the closest I've been to a Guild rosewood 12 since the idea of a switch first came into my head. Am I wrong to have assumed that a vintage 512 (in good shape, of course) will automatically be a better guitar than the new one? Or, to put it another way, what are the pros and cons of a vintage 512 or JF55 vs. the new 512? Thanks, all.

 

[adorshki]

Am I wrong to have assumed that a vintage 512 (in good shape, of course) will automatically be a better guitar than the new one?

Short answer, "yes".
Long answer:
Excluding the issue of opening up and tone improving with age (which I do believe in), build quality of all factories since Westerly is generally agreed to be at last as good as Westerly, although the tendency has been towards lighter and more resonant builds since Corona '02-'04. (Corona did have a rough spot during start-up but "good ones" are agreed to be great, ask Cougar)
And this place is probably their toughest audience.

Or, to put it another way, what are the pros and cons of a vintage 512 or JF55 vs. the new 512? Thanks, all.

For me biggest "pro" of a new guitar is warranty.
Second biggest "pro" is the pleasure of experiencing the guitar's tone evolution and the pleasure of the "Honeymoon moment" which can last for years every time you open the case, which is where a guitar of that caliber should be stored.
I still get it a little bit with my D40 and my F65ce.
Also, I LOVE the feel of brand new frets.
On the flip side of the coin there are those who love the mojo that can be associated with vintage pieces, (or heck even the beauty of a "time capsule" piece) and there are some build detail differences that might appeal to a given buyer, such as the likelihood of a '60's to early '70's piece having Brazilian back/sides, or the fact that in Tacoma a single truss rod (with flanking graphite stabilizers) was introduced ca. '07.
That, along with open tuners (which turn me off) made for lighter necks and lighter overall guitars.
That's my "nutshell" take until actual owners give their feedback.
:friendly_wink:

 

[chazmo]

Yes, you are wrong.

But, "wrong" is subjective, of course.

 

[F312]

Get both.

Ralph

 

[Rayk]

I'm leaning new .
Your used the old builds tone and it's a heavy build if it is heavy IDK . LOL

Thing is your liking Taylor's sound now the Guild won't carry that type of sound but what both do have in common is that there designed with a
more modern tone which will appeal to you .

So bring your old 512 to meet the new 512 and listen to how they compare then you'll know .

 

[wileypickett]

I've never come across an Oxnard F512 (or whatever they're calling it these days) but I thought the New Hartford F512s sounded pretty great.

But I never made the plunge -- I had a Westerly F512 and thought it had the edge, sound-wise. (But of course the new ones don't have the advantage of decades of play, and whatever that adds to the equation, as adorshki points out.)

The one advantage the new models have versus the old is that the necks are slimmer and a bit easier to play. So sound aside, if you prefer the FEEL of Taylor necks, you'll probably prefer the feel of the more recently made Guilds.

(Soundwise, I prefer Guild 12-strings over Taylors. I still have a Taylor LKSM 12-string, but that was the only one I kept after discovering Guilds.)

 

[fronobulax]

You may or may not find this thread of interest.

https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?202141-Wanted-F-512-12-String

Any time you buy vintage you need to assess the likelihood of a neck reset being needed.

 

[Cougar]

....a vintage 512 (in good shape, of course)...

That's the potential drawback with vintage 12-strings: If they don't need repair now, they're more likely to in the future. I got a seriously discounted 2018 Oxnard-built F512 that was apparently knocked off a stand and suffered a couple small-ish gouges in the top finish. I had the gouges professionally sealed, but they didn't affect the tone anyway. Sorry I can't compare it to a vintage model, but I am super happy with it in every way. Bottom line, either way I don't think you can go wrong, assuming you can find a vintage in excellent condition, plenty of saddle, etc., etc. Best of luck! F512s are definitely special!

 

[Brucebubs]

Martin also made a rosewood jumbo 12-string ... well ... 231 of them at least.

The Martin Grand J12-40E Special

Yes, that's mine but I also think a new Guild F-512 would be an outstanding guitar too.

In the Taylor line-up I think the 458R was the stand out model - rosewood Grand Orchestra - but I think they just dropped it recently.

 

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adorshki,

For me biggest "pro" of a new guitar is warranty.

Bear with me as I figure out how to do the "Reply with quote" thing. First, a clarification of something I should have been more clear about in my original post: when I say "new" I'm talking about a used one built since the Oxnard re-introduction. A brand new 512 gets up into the price range where I might have to decide between the guitar and my wife -- and she's the cook in the family.

Second biggest "pro" is the pleasure of experiencing the guitar's tone evolution and the pleasure of the "Honeymoon moment" which can last for years every time you open the case, which is where a guitar of that caliber should be stored.

It's frustrating because I own 2 guitars I find to be absolutely gorgeous and would love to display, but the humidity in my music room right now is 29% -- and can hit 75 - 80% in the summer. So both of my guitars live their entire life (except for playing time) in their tightly closed cases and in the company of D'Addario Humipaks. But you're correct. Opening the case and looking at the guitar again is pure pleasure every time.

On the flip side of the coin there are those who love the mojo that can be associated with vintage pieces, (or heck even the beauty of a "time capsule" piece)

I have to confess I'm worried about that. My F-412 is in near-mint condition, so I'm not sure most strangers believe me, but there is a certain thrill to telling people who ask that my guitar is 52 years old. I'm afraid I'll discover, if I switch to a much newer guitar, that the pride and sense of stewardship in owning a half-century-old guitar might just have become a fundamental part of my self-image.

 

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Ralph,

Get both.

Why didn't I think of that?

 

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Thing is your liking Taylor's sound now the Guild won't carry that type of sound but what both do have in common is that there designed with a
more modern tone which will appeal to you .

Here's where it gets tricky: I don't think I like the "Taylor's sound." I think (though I could be wrong) that what I like is the rosewood sound vs. my maple's sound. I say that, in part, because I was able to play a new Taylor (don't recall the model) rosewood 12 about a year ago. I thought the sound was nice, but even if they had they offered me a straight-up trade: my 412 for that Taylor (priced around $4,000, I think), I would not have taken them up on it. So at least for now, I'm not interested in comparing the 412's sound vs. other make's rosewood sound. I first want to compare the 412 against a 512. But it's becoming clear that I'm probably going to have to drive at least a few hours to hear that comparison, and I started this tread to try to determine if I should make that drive ONLY for vintage 512's, ONLY for newer 512's, or for either.

 

[Cougar]

....I'm talking about a used one built since the Oxnard re-introduction. A brand new 512 gets up into the price range where I might have to decide between the guitar and my wife -- and she's the cook in the family....

Heh. I think you're in good company here.

But you also ought to consider 512s coming out of New Hartford. Some here consider the New Hartford models to be the cream of the crop (the entire crop being excellent nevertheless). Used F512s coming out of Oxnard are going to be really rare. Used New Hardford models are fairly rare as it is. Patience and diligence will be the name of the game!

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

New Guild guitars are hard to find where I live.
I have been interested in playing a newer F512 with the single truss rod for some time now.

I sold my JF-30-12 because the neck was just too big and uncomfortable.

Right now, I have a Yamaha LL-16-12 with a very comfortable neck.
It has solid Rosewood B and S which gives the guitar a rich and full tone.
The Yamaha was about 1/3 the price of a new F512.
My 12 string playing time is only about 10 to 15% of my total playing time so I can't justify the price of the F512.

 

[Rayk]

Here's where it gets tricky: I don't think I like the "Taylor's sound." I think (though I could be wrong) that what I like is the rosewood sound vs. my maple's sound. I say that, in part, because I was able to play a new Taylor (don't recall the model) rosewood 12 about a year ago. I thought the sound was nice, but even if they had they offered me a straight-up trade: my 412 for that Taylor (priced around $4,000, I think), I would not have taken them up on it. So at least for now, I'm not interested in comparing the 412's sound vs. other make's rosewood sound. I first want to compare the 412 against a 512. But it's becoming clear that I'm probably going to have to drive at least a few hours to hear that comparison, and I started this tread to try to determine if I should make that drive ONLY for vintage 512's, ONLY for newer 512's, or for either.

Rosewood would be a much warmer sound then Maple though I've not owned any maples and it's been a long time since I've played one.
I myself am primarily a Rosewood guy . Lol
5 of my 8 guitars are rosewoods . I think you might enjoy a nice Rd trip so why not ? .

 

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I've never come across an Oxnard F512 (or whatever they're calling it these days) but I thought the New Hartford F512s sounded pretty great.

But I never made the plunge -- I had a Westerly F512 and thought it had the edge, sound-wise. (But of course the new ones don't have the advantage of decades of play, and whatever that adds to the equation, as adorshki points out.)

I guess I had just assumed that the Westerly 512's would be better than any newer ones, but that clearly is not the general consensus here on LTG.

The one advantage the new models have versus the old is that the necks are slimmer and a bit easier to play.

That comment got the attention of this 68-year old with arthritic hands. That fact alone might get me to switch.

(Soundwise, I prefer Guild 12-strings over Taylors ...

I agree. See my reply to Rayk

 

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fronobulax,

Any time you buy vintage you need to assess the likelihood of a neck reset being needed.

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Yes, I was just through a neck reset, along with numerous other repairs and modifications, with the 412 in 2016, so I'll be very aware of that issue as I look at 512's.

 

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That's the potential drawback with vintage 12-strings: If they don't need repair now, they're more likely to in the future. I got a seriously discounted 2018 Oxnard-built F512 that was apparently knocked off a stand and suffered a couple small-ish gouges in the top finish. I had the gouges professionally sealed, but they didn't affect the tone anyway. Sorry I can't compare it to a vintage model, but I am super happy with it in every way. Bottom line, either way I don't think you can go wrong, assuming you can find a vintage in excellent condition, plenty of saddle, etc., etc. Best of luck! F512s are definitely special!

That's a beauty! A situation like yours is what I'm hoping to stumble across: some sort of minor flaw which is enough to turn some people away but which is easily fixed and does not impact the sound. In fact, that's how I got my Dykes. It was being sold by a music store just outside NYC as "defective." The Baggs pre-amp was not working and Guild said they would replace it under warranty, but the pre-amps, like the guitar, were only made in limited numbers and Guild did not have a spare on hand. So I bought it at a significant discount, registered the warranty with Guild and told them I needed the pre-amp. About 9 months later they called and said that the California service center had received a Doyle Dykes which had been in an auto accident. The guitar was beyond repair, but the pre-amp was fine, so Guild's Chicago authorized service facility did the replacement, as promised, under warranty.

 

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Martin also made a rosewood jumbo 12-string ... well ... 231 of them at least.

The Martin Grand J12-40E Special

Yes, that's mine but I also think a new Guild F-512 would be an outstanding guitar too.

That's a beautiful guitar. I'm guessing the sound is even more impressive that the appearance.

 

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New Guild guitars are hard to find where I live.

To my surprise, it's the same around here.

My 12 string playing time is only about 10 to 15% of my total playing time so I can't justify the price of the F512.

12 string is about 99.99% of my playing time, so I don't mind making the investment in a nice F512 if I conclude that it is, in fact, a more appealing sound than my F412.