D40 1968 vs. 1978

[donnylang]

Lacking in bass does not sound like a D40 to me. The ‘68 I had was pretty thumpy.

 

[kostask]

i can only speak to what I see, and these are pictures that can be taken at various angles; not really a substitute for seeing the guitar in person.

1. Neck angle is off, by a lot.
2. The bridge seems to be plenty high, or not shaved down to me.
3. The saddle is very low, not just from its appearance relative to the bridge top surface, but the string break angle is very shallow, even with string slots/ramps already being cut in.
4. I am seeing what look like deposits of some type at the front edge of the bridge, but I cannot say from the picture that they are lacquer, or glue (as in somebody injecting glue at the front of edge the bridge and not completely cleaning up the squeeze out). Seems most obvious in the picture that shows the side of the bridge, but doesn't really look too bad in the other pictures.
5. Somebody did a really nice job when they intonated the saddle.

If you can live with the string action the way it is, play it until you can't live with it. You already seem to like the sound.

 

[wileypickett]

RE: #5.

Don't think that's a hand-carved saddle, but rather a drop-in intonated bone replacement saddle, as in this listing:

Metallor Bone Acoustic Guitar Strings Bridge Saddle and End Nut Pack of 1 Set | eBay

1 x Guitar Saddle. Saddle: 73×9.5×3mm. 1 x Guitar Nut. Material: Bone.

www.ebay.com

The ends being non-intonated is the same on both.

 

[chazmo]

Yeah, valleyguy, that neck is off by a lot. Is it straight? If it's bowed forward, you might be able to straighten it with the truss rod and thus (potentially) lower the action. However, don't mess with it if the neck really is straight.

Anyway, kostas and wiley are pretty much reflecting back to you what we can tell from those pix. That guitar as it is will be hard to play and likely not play well in tune.

 

[valleyguy]

Thanks all for the feedback on the fotos. The neck is straight as an arrow, so no adjusting there. Surprisingly, the intonation is not that bad on the guitar, but it is somewhat hard to play.

The saddle is definitely not original, Wiley, it is similar to the one you posted, the first and second string are compensated. Buyer said the bridge cracked and he had it repaired, I'm thinking that is when it got the compensated saddle, maybe the entire bridge was taken off, it doesn't appear shaven.

Kostask, you said it, I will live with it and play it awhile, but I think a neck reset is in the future. I don't think I'm inclined to do the bridge doctor, Wiley.

Donnylang, no thump in this '68....

 

[Br1ck]

That bridge is Brazillian rosewood. Don't let anyone talk you into shaving it. You could possibly slot in front of the pins, but that straightedge shot screams neck reset to me. If you have excess bellying of the top, the only permanent fix I know is to take the bridge plate out, and put a new one in and reglue the bridge at the same time. Someone like Mr. Fixit needs to have a look. But you will be good to go for three or four decades should you choose to invest. You will get better tone and more volume when the string break over the saddle is correct.

I bought my D 35 cheap from Gryphon because they didn't want to invest shop time in it. The economic return was not like taking a 70 D 18 and resetting the neck. But at the time, Richard told me it had potential because it sounded good already. He was right. The repair is certainly worth it from a historical view if not an economic one. I certainly never regretted the money spent on mine. Wish it had not been sitting in my closet for over a decade.

 

[wileypickett]

As you can see, there are no shortage of opinons here at LTG!

I would caution you on having the bridge plate replaced as a way to fix the bellying, because a.) it's expensive and, b.) according to Martin and other builders, it's not an effective or long lasting way to correct bellying issues.

One of Martin's repair people bench tested the Bridge Doctor for the *Guild of American Luthiers* magazine some years ago and reported that it was a better way to correct bellying issues than having the bridge plate replaced, because the bridge plate is not where the bellying typically occurs, the bridge plate is too small to affect the area that bellies, which is the area well behind the bridge, and replacing the bridge plate has no affect on the area in front of the bridge around the sound hole, which often dips as the area behind the bridge rises.

As he said in his article, "Wood has memory" -- i.e; the bellying will come back. (He prefaced his article by noting that he was about to replace the bridge plate on the same bellying Martin guitar for the third time.)

But he also noted in his assessment that Martin owners would likely be resistent to having BD's installed (as his third bridge plate customer was) in spite of his recommendation and in spite of the fact that BDs are cheap, they work, and they're easy to install and easy to remove.

Why? Because they're not "traditonal," and somehow users think that by installing them you're not keeping the guitar original.

Ultimately you'll do what makes the most sense to you -- it's your guitar and your money. If you have a luthier you trust, and you decide to have the playablity issues dealt with, see what he or she recommends.

Good luck!

 

[donnylang]

If I recall, that Craigslist ad said the bridge was replaced ... the original bridge would have had the long through saddle.

this is a song I cut with my old ‘68 D40- I can even hear the thump in the recording, even though I did EQ some of the lows and lower mids out:

 

[adorshki]

If I recall, that Craigslist ad said the bridge was replaced ... the original bridge would have had the long through saddle.

I'm inclined to say "yes", but '68 might have been a transition year.

Richie Havens' D40 on the cover of Mixed Bag has a through-saddle, and can't be newer than a '67, but by Woodstock he was using one with a drop-in saddle, which can't be newer than an August '69....

this is a song I cut with my old ‘68 D40- I can even hear the thump in the recording, even though I did EQ some of the lows and lower mids out:

Love it, especially the video!!

 

[donnylang]

I'm inclined to say "yes", but '68 might have been a transition year.

Richie Havens' D40 on the cover of Mixed Bag has a through-saddle, and can't be newer than a '67, but by Woodstock he was using one with a drop-in saddle, which can't be newer than an August '69....

Love it, especially the video!!

Thanks, Al!

I think you’re right that ‘68 might be through saddle or drop it, but I think more likely to be through. I’ve had a handful of ‘68 Guilds (F212 x2, F212-XL, D40, D35), and they’ve all been through saddle. The ‘69s I’ve seen (including two I owned- and F212 and a D35) were all drop in.

Let’s just say on January 1, 1969- all through-saddles were thrown in the trash bin and drop ins were used from that moment forward

*edit- actually wait. The 1969 F412 I had was a through saddle. So I’m gonna go with 1969 being the transition? Knowing Guild, who knows ...

 

[adorshki]

Thanks, Al!

I think you’re right that ‘68 might be through saddle or drop it, but I think more likely to be through. I’ve had a handful of ‘68 Guilds (F212 x2, F212-XL, D40, D35), and they’ve all been through saddle. The ‘69s I’ve seen (including two I owned- and F212 and a D35) were all drop in.

I love your hands-on experience input, thanks! It's just "hypothesis" on my part re the year '68 based on sightings I recall.

Let’s just say on January 1, 1969- all through-saddles were thrown in the trash bin and drop ins were used from that moment forward
*edit- actually wait. The 1969 F412 I had was a through saddle. So I’m gonna go with 1969 being the transition? Knowing Guild, who knows ...

Y'gotta remember nothing was done by the calendar in that way, it was usually phased in during production on existing models, why we see different details that are both correct in same calendar year examples.

Re '69 with through-saddle F412, possibly assembled in '68 (probably in Hoboken if so, I bet) and not finally finished for an order until '69?
Possibly even in Westerly? Don't recall ever hearing specifically if "Work-in-Progress" pieces were sent to Westerly to finish as Hoboken shut down...

Or another possibility just hit me: Maybe they were using up the last of the old 12-string specific bridges?
Al Dronge was notorious for letting no good part go to waste.

Actually bet that second thought's the real reason.

 

[valleyguy]

Donny, nice video, that D40 records nicely. Not sure what a long through saddle is, but from the words it would appear I do not have that. The saddle sits in a slot like every other saddle I have removed. The seller said the bridge was fixed, there was a crack in the bridge, a line along the pins, and it was fixed. Would they have replaced the whole bridge as the fix? Kostas pointed the glue around the bridge out before.

I put a straight edge to the bridge and the top just under it. There is very little, if not imperceptible, leaning forward of the bridge, meaning a bridge doctor would not have a lot to fix there. The top has a small belly, but for the age of the guitar it is very small..

I've concluded that some time in the near future the neck reset is the way to go, with new saddle, fret dressing, etc. The more I play the more I find small intonation issues, especially up the neck, and, it is hard to play due to the relief.

 

[Heath]

This is an example of a through saddle. You can see by the ends it’s a little different. The saddle could slide “through” or across the bridge.

 

[valleyguy]

This is an example of a through saddle. You can see by the ends it’s a little different. The saddle could slide “through” or across the bridge.

I defintely do not have a through saddle, then.

thanks

 

[davismanLV]

I agree with those that say the bridge is unmolested and has plenty of heft to it. I sure wouldn't be shaving it or anything because then when and if you decide you need a neck reset, it'll have to be replaced. All good information here, but since no one responded to your $400 estimate for a neck reset, being in Los Angeles/SFV, etc., it's gonna cost a good bit more than that. California is typically high on almost everything. I'm thinking $700-1000 all in with a new saddle and setup and possibly fret leveling. But you can get estimates.

 

[donnylang]

Donny, nice video, that D40 records nicely. Not sure what a long through saddle is, but from the words it would appear I do not have that. The saddle sits in a slot like every other saddle I have removed. The seller said the bridge was fixed, there was a crack in the bridge, a line along the pins, and it was fixed. Would they have replaced the whole bridge as the fix? Kostas pointed the glue around the bridge out before.

I put a straight edge to the bridge and the top just under it. There is very little, if not imperceptible, leaning forward of the bridge, meaning a bridge doctor would not have a lot to fix there. The top has a small belly, but for the age of the guitar it is very small..

I've concluded that some time in the near future the neck reset is the way to go, with new saddle, fret dressing, etc. The more I play the more I find small intonation issues, especially up the neck, and, it is hard to play due to the relief.

Thanks-

And yeh I would expect a '68 to have a through saddle, especially if your guitar has the neck volute. Though as Al mentioned in this thread, who knows with Guild as '68 can be considered a transition period in general. I would have to see more pictures, but that bridge doesn't look like an original '68 bridge to me. Even without the through saddle, the bridges were thinner back then IME and that one looks pretty thick.

I can't see the CL listing anymore but I could have sworn it said the bridge was replaced.

Here's the bridge on the '68 I had for comparison. This was serial # AJ-2399:

 

[donnylang]

Here's a '69 D40 (serial looks like AJ-2942), still has the through-saddle (and cloud bridge):

As Al noted above, nothing is hard and fast w/ Guilds from this era ... but I think evidence points to replacement IMO.

 

[donnylang]

My '68 D35 bridge from a couple different close-up angles ... this guitar was likely made around the same time as yours:

 

[donnylang]

A '69-'70 D40 with the drop-in saddle. The bridge should still be more in the "Hoboken" style, not the "blob" style of the later ones. You could use this to compare the contours of yours:

 

[Br1ck]

I don't have a breakdown on the work I had done on my 70 D 35. I needed a bridge because of a previous shave, which I bought from Hans Moust. It was one of two he had left six or so years ago. That was $100. Then I had the neck reset and a refret, along with a new nut and saddle, plus lacquer sprayed on the neck that had been sanded to bare wood. There was a small crack from the pickguard to the neck that was glued and cleated. All that was $1k. I bought the guitar a couple of decades ago for $250.

Since your guitar, at least to me, is the more desirable Hoboken build and a D 40, I'd take any good luthier's advice and bite the bulliet. Be advised I live in a high cost area, and likely the work could be done a third cheaper. Maybe your frets have a fret level left in them, maybe not. I just had a fret level after six years of playing mt D 35. A significant difference.

As you have found, the higher you go the more you move the string to contact the fret, making for sharper notes. It is a worthwhile if not economic thing to do.