JerryR
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Carol said:
Funny - an audience has exactly the same effect on me :roll:
Best "starter" kit for digital recording...
- Thread starter GardMan
- Start date
Funny - an audience has exactly the same effect on me :roll:
JerryR
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Guildmark said:
What is an iPod :?:
GardMan
Enlightened Member
JerryR said:
Couple months back, I saw a newspaper ad for a scoop-like device for cleaning up after your dog... called an "iPoo'd!" I am sure a quick threat of a lawsuit from Apple nipped that in the bud. Wish I had cut out the ad... our network administrator at work is a real Mac-o-phile, and doesn't provide a lot of "support" for us PC folks (I think we are the only department on campus where Macs outnumber PCs).
My son has a poster of a bulldog with the ubiquitous white buds in his ears.
Title: iPawd
Title: iPawd
JerryR
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I've read this thread with great interest - mainly becsause I have been looking out for something to record on. In the good ole' days you just set up a tape recorder, but there doesn't seem to be anything as cheap and simple as that now. I think I will take the coward's way out - I know about 3 people who have the wherewithal to record live music and burn a CD - just a matter of paying them, and they have all the hassle :mrgreen:
Carol - it's funny about the 'red light phobia' - when Radio Britfolk (now called 'The Music Well') came to 'Folk at the Oak' to record the nights session, I had the double whammy of playing live on a spotlit stage, and having to keep the right distance from mics and knowing I was being recorded, yet I coped and people said I looked very relaxed (actually I was $hitting breeze blocks - like bricks but a lot bigger and rougher) :mrgreen:
What is still a mystery is when said recording will ever be released :roll:
Carol - it's funny about the 'red light phobia' - when Radio Britfolk (now called 'The Music Well') came to 'Folk at the Oak' to record the nights session, I had the double whammy of playing live on a spotlit stage, and having to keep the right distance from mics and knowing I was being recorded, yet I coped and people said I looked very relaxed (actually I was $hitting breeze blocks - like bricks but a lot bigger and rougher) :mrgreen:
What is still a mystery is when said recording will ever be released :roll:
Mingus
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I've been watching this subject for a few days. I have a reasonably sized homestudio (Protools w/24 inputs, 16 Track Analog reel to reel, 24 channel analog board, plenty of mics and outboard gear) and have years of experience. The problem I have answering your question (and the reason I haven't so far) is that i'm too far down the rabbit hole to help you the way you need to be helped at the moment. I'll try, though,to bite my toung and help you a bit.
First off. . .start off with a good microphones. I have some great microphones. Some super expensive and some reasonably affordable. I also have some pieces of crap from when I first started. Don't be lured in by some of this junk. A good example would be the 2 pack of MXL microphones (990 and 991 i think) offered at guitar center for dirt cheap. They're actually the same small diaphragm mic in different housing. Like guitars, mics have their own sound and these mics sound bad. Not all MXL microphones are bad though. . .I have a pair of MXL 2001s that sound pretty good. . .although I don't use it as much now. Another MXL mic that's affordable is the 603. I think they sell the 2001 and the 603 in an "anniversary pack" for something like $100. Look it up. If you're willing to spend a little more, try something from http://www.oktavamod.com or Violet microphones (I forget where you can find the Violet microphones. . .but I tried some out at the AES show this year and they were AWESOME. . .totally affordable too and they seemed to indicate that if you called you might be able to work out a deal for them). I would definitely, like other people have said, start with a pair of condensers. They require "phantom power," which can be found in most mic preamps.
I'll skip over stand-alone preamps. Preamps are the second most important link in the recording chain, but little differences become less important the fewer tracks you use. Example: I can record some sweet sounding single guitar/vocal recordings on a small 2 channel M-Audio interface. . .but If I recorded a whole rock band it would sound flat and dead!
The interface is the least of your worries. . .especially if you're only recording yourself. I helped a friend of mine pick up a 2 channel M-Audio interface (USB, 2 mic inputs) for pretty cheap. He was recording with Sonar 4.
Software:
Software is expensive when you look at the box, but considering what it does, it's fairly inexpensive. Still, it's a lot to shell out when you're testing the water with recording. My first interface was a MOTU 828 (the original one), my first mics were Oktava MK319 (not modded by oktavamod yet) and my FIRST recording software was a pirated copy of Logic. (It used to be available for PC) I later graduated to a "borrowed" copy of Sonar 1.5. Fast forward to now. . .I buy allmy software. . .I make money off it, so it's the way to go. Fortunately for you there are free software items available. I've heard some great things about Reaper,but have never tried it. I'd reccomend saving your money for microphones and using some free software!
Hope at least some of that was helpful. I know the feeling of being at the ground floor of something with people telling you that your budget isn't nearly enough for what you want to do and that none of your options are worth a damn. So I hope i've given you some beginner ideas. I think the thing to keep in mind is upgradability. I know you may have no idea of this growing into anything bigger. . .but you never know what happens down the road. Every time I look in my mic cabinet or at my racks and see some of the JUNK that I haven't used in years I think about what I could have bought instead.
-James
First off. . .start off with a good microphones. I have some great microphones. Some super expensive and some reasonably affordable. I also have some pieces of crap from when I first started. Don't be lured in by some of this junk. A good example would be the 2 pack of MXL microphones (990 and 991 i think) offered at guitar center for dirt cheap. They're actually the same small diaphragm mic in different housing. Like guitars, mics have their own sound and these mics sound bad. Not all MXL microphones are bad though. . .I have a pair of MXL 2001s that sound pretty good. . .although I don't use it as much now. Another MXL mic that's affordable is the 603. I think they sell the 2001 and the 603 in an "anniversary pack" for something like $100. Look it up. If you're willing to spend a little more, try something from http://www.oktavamod.com or Violet microphones (I forget where you can find the Violet microphones. . .but I tried some out at the AES show this year and they were AWESOME. . .totally affordable too and they seemed to indicate that if you called you might be able to work out a deal for them). I would definitely, like other people have said, start with a pair of condensers. They require "phantom power," which can be found in most mic preamps.
I'll skip over stand-alone preamps. Preamps are the second most important link in the recording chain, but little differences become less important the fewer tracks you use. Example: I can record some sweet sounding single guitar/vocal recordings on a small 2 channel M-Audio interface. . .but If I recorded a whole rock band it would sound flat and dead!
The interface is the least of your worries. . .especially if you're only recording yourself. I helped a friend of mine pick up a 2 channel M-Audio interface (USB, 2 mic inputs) for pretty cheap. He was recording with Sonar 4.
Software:
Software is expensive when you look at the box, but considering what it does, it's fairly inexpensive. Still, it's a lot to shell out when you're testing the water with recording. My first interface was a MOTU 828 (the original one), my first mics were Oktava MK319 (not modded by oktavamod yet) and my FIRST recording software was a pirated copy of Logic. (It used to be available for PC) I later graduated to a "borrowed" copy of Sonar 1.5. Fast forward to now. . .I buy allmy software. . .I make money off it, so it's the way to go. Fortunately for you there are free software items available. I've heard some great things about Reaper,but have never tried it. I'd reccomend saving your money for microphones and using some free software!
Hope at least some of that was helpful. I know the feeling of being at the ground floor of something with people telling you that your budget isn't nearly enough for what you want to do and that none of your options are worth a damn. So I hope i've given you some beginner ideas. I think the thing to keep in mind is upgradability. I know you may have no idea of this growing into anything bigger. . .but you never know what happens down the road. Every time I look in my mic cabinet or at my racks and see some of the JUNK that I haven't used in years I think about what I could have bought instead.
-James
jp
Senior Member
Hey Dave,
I don't know what happened but my post disappeared. I posted some other choices. Since you're comfortable messing with computers, a lot of barriers are taken away. I'm actually looking to invest in a simple set up soon too. I've decided to go with the Lexicon Omega--$200. Check it out here.
-- (2) Female XLR Pin
-- (2) 1/4" TRS (phone jack) insert inputs
-- (4) 1/4" TRS (phone jack) line inputs
-- Phantom power
-- MIDI and S/PDIF in/outs
The 8 inputs can be paired to record 4 tracks simultaneously. You also get a Lexicon Delay/Reverb Plug-in and Cubase LE. Pretty good deal. There are other comparable setups, but they cost a little more.
I don't know what happened but my post disappeared. I posted some other choices. Since you're comfortable messing with computers, a lot of barriers are taken away. I'm actually looking to invest in a simple set up soon too. I've decided to go with the Lexicon Omega--$200. Check it out here.
-- (2) Female XLR Pin
-- (2) 1/4" TRS (phone jack) insert inputs
-- (4) 1/4" TRS (phone jack) line inputs
-- Phantom power
-- MIDI and S/PDIF in/outs
The 8 inputs can be paired to record 4 tracks simultaneously. You also get a Lexicon Delay/Reverb Plug-in and Cubase LE. Pretty good deal. There are other comparable setups, but they cost a little more.
GardMan
Enlightened Member
Thx Carol, James, JP, and everyone else,
JP... I can still see your first post. I looked up some of the interfaces you listed. The Lexican lambda (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Lexicon-Lambda-USB-Desktop-Studio-103725602-i1126258.gc?Mode=5) has two XLR mic inputs (w pre-amps and phantom power). Another option with two XLR inputs is http://www.guitarcenter.com/PreSonus-INSPIRE-1394-FireWire-Audio-Interface-103943718-i1126021.gc. Both come with CuBase LE. I am going to try and keep my costs under $350... so anything I save on the interface can go into mics, stands, cables, headset moniter, etc. I really don't expect this to expand into anything major... Just would like to play around a bit, and see if I can put together something good enough to give to family.
Keep it coming! More advice and comments welcomed!
Dave
JP... I can still see your first post. I looked up some of the interfaces you listed. The Lexican lambda (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Lexicon-Lambda-USB-Desktop-Studio-103725602-i1126258.gc?Mode=5) has two XLR mic inputs (w pre-amps and phantom power). Another option with two XLR inputs is http://www.guitarcenter.com/PreSonus-INSPIRE-1394-FireWire-Audio-Interface-103943718-i1126021.gc. Both come with CuBase LE. I am going to try and keep my costs under $350... so anything I save on the interface can go into mics, stands, cables, headset moniter, etc. I really don't expect this to expand into anything major... Just would like to play around a bit, and see if I can put together something good enough to give to family.
Keep it coming! More advice and comments welcomed!
Dave
Mingus
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i really reccomend this as a great starter pac of microphones:
MXL 2001/603
That Lexicon thing sounds interesting. I don't think i've seen that before but I have 2 Lexicon reverb units that I think are just fantastic! I'm just guessing, but i'd bet that the preamps in the Lexicon are a little more hi-fi than in the M-Audio units. That's cool! Forgot about Cubase LE! It's totally a cool program!
-James
MXL 2001/603
That Lexicon thing sounds interesting. I don't think i've seen that before but I have 2 Lexicon reverb units that I think are just fantastic! I'm just guessing, but i'd bet that the preamps in the Lexicon are a little more hi-fi than in the M-Audio units. That's cool! Forgot about Cubase LE! It's totally a cool program!
-James
jp
Senior Member
I posted another one in between that had other suggestions with multiple inputs. One was the Mackie Onyx Satellite. Major differences though are Firewire instead of USB and Traktion instead of Cubase--also $200--looks decent, though and 6 line level inputs.GardMan said:
Others
E-MU 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface
-- This one is tempting because of the software package.
(Cakewalk SONAR LE, Cubase LE, WaveLab Lite, Ableton Live 4 Lite for E-MU, IK Multimedia AmpliTube LE, Minnetonka diskWelder BRONZE (trial version), SFX Machine LT, E-MU Proteus X2 LE Software Sound Module)
Fostex MR-8 Mk II Digital Multitrack Recorder
Fostex MR8HD 8-Track Digital Recorder
-- Couple of Fostek rigs like Don's but sampling rates aren't so high, oen even comes with headphones cables and an AKG mike, who knows what kind of quality, though
Still like the Lexicon Omega, though because as James mentions above, Lexicon makes quality stuff, and you get Cubase. Presonus gear seems pretty good as well, and the pricier PreSonus FIRESTUDIO (formerly Firepod) seems to be the interface of choice for most basement studio folks. It would be nice to score a version of ProTools LE in the package.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
I want to know why I've seen none of Carol's recordings?
West
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Because they're audio?
<ducks>
<ducks>
Graham
Venerated Member
Default said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Ok, I want to know why I haven't SEEN a post of Carol's recordings?
West
West
sfIII said:
Guildmark said:
I've had one since just after they came out and its sitting in a drawer. My Blackberry has great music management and storage, and even plays music through its speaker, which iPod doesn't do. Even more important, it isn't prorietary, it imports MP3, WMF and WAV files -- try that with an iPod! The best thing about iPod is iTunes, and then only when you set it to store in MP3 format.
JerryR
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Yes - but we still want to hear your recordings Carol
(Forget about i-pods, p-pods, cenna-pods or whatever :mrgreen: )
(Forget about i-pods, p-pods, cenna-pods or whatever :mrgreen: )
Ross
Senior Member
Coming in late to this topic...
I definitely second the suggestion to record instrument and voice separately. If you record them simultaneously, you double the chance of making a mistake. Personally, I like to record guitar while seated, but I'm a much better singer if I stand up (or at least I think I am).
I'd also recommend a pop filter for vocals (they start at ~$15).
I record on a Mac, using GarageBand. I use an M Audio interface - the smallest and cheapest one that they make - has one 1/4" input and one 3-prong mic input. That's all I need, since I only record one thing at a time.
Best wishes in your recording project.
I definitely second the suggestion to record instrument and voice separately. If you record them simultaneously, you double the chance of making a mistake. Personally, I like to record guitar while seated, but I'm a much better singer if I stand up (or at least I think I am).
I'd also recommend a pop filter for vocals (they start at ~$15).
I record on a Mac, using GarageBand. I use an M Audio interface - the smallest and cheapest one that they make - has one 1/4" input and one 3-prong mic input. That's all I need, since I only record one thing at a time.
Best wishes in your recording project.
Interesting that this thread popped up again today. I just came back from recording a radio public service announcement with Norm Nixon (former LA Laker) on my Xoon X2. Once you zero in recording levels there is nothing that this device in combination with Audacity can't do. I originally bought it to record my playing, but as a business tool it has already paid for itself several times over.
GardMan
Enlightened Member
As long as this thread has "popped up" again, I'll post an update...
Here's what I started with:
Presonus Inspire 1394 Firewire interface ($150 from GC)
MXL 2001 (large diaphragm)/ MXL 603 (small diaphragm) "anniversery" pack of mics ($100 new off eBay)
2 for 1 boom stands ($30 from GC)
2 XLR cables (~$24 each from GC)
Pop filter (~$20 from GC)
The Presonus interface is sort of interesting... it has 4 inputs: 2 x mic (XLR with 48V phantom power)/guitar (1/4") on the front (2 channels that can be either mic or guitar), and two line inputs (RCA jacks, no phantom power) on the back. The RCA line inputs are set up to accept keyboards or other instruments, or input from a phono turntable. What is unique is that there are NO controls/pots/switches AT ALL on the box. All is controlled in a software applet running on your computer. Output to the recording computer is thru firewire... it can be powered from the firewire bus if you use a 6 pin cable. With the 4 pin cable from my laptop, I need to use the supplied power supply. There are output jacks for headphones and moniters/speakers. It came bundled with Cubase LE. Setup was pretty easy, with just a few tweaks of my Dell laptop OS to eliminate (I think) pops and skips during recording. May try and tweak it a bit more to lower the latency between playback and recording track (I have it set at 6 msec now, haven't tried lower). Oh... up to 4 Inspires can be "daisy-chained" together feeding one computer work station if additional channels are needed (also, see below)...
I haven't had a lot of time to play with it... since recording requires that the family is out of the house, turning off the heat and frig to eliminate noise, etc. Also, I haven't really any experience with recording to compare it too... but here are my first impressions (there is an EXTENSIVE and very useful review here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1257843).
So far, I have been laying down independent vocal and guitar tracks as several have suggested... double mic-ing the guitar (panned L and R) and then coming back and laying down a third track with vocals (panned center). The first thing to note is that the pre-amps don't provide as much gain as a stand-alone pre-amp might. In fact, they probably don't provide sufficient gain for use with most dynamic mics... With the MXLs condensor mics I have, there is just enough gain for the guitar (so far, just fingerpicking, which is quiter than my cowboy strumming), but a bit of hiss creeps in as the gain passes ~75%, so I have been recording at lower gain, close mic-ing the guitars and boosting the levels later in Cubase. Don't know if it's the room, proximity effect, or characteristics of the mics or pre-amps, but I find that I need to boost the trebles and roll off the bass a bit to get the guitar to sound the way I want. I have really only recorded one decent (tho' "bland") vocal track, so far... and have been learning how to equalize and mix the tracks in Cubase (my photo hosting site can't serve MP3s at this time, so no samples yet).
The biggest frustration for me has been laying down the guitar tracks... keeping track of where I am without singing along. Even when I am going thru the song in my head as I play, I still make more mistakes than when I am playing AND singing. In the three sessions (couple hours each) I have tried, I have played my fingers raw, often getting thru nearly the entire guitar track only to screw up the last bar. ARGH! I also just feel more natural playing while singing and singing while playing... my one vocal track didn't feel natural to me. So, I still want to try laying down vocals and guitar in one pass... but I also want to double mic the guitars (rather than trying to double over the guitar track later). That would require 3 tracks at once... plus, I wanted to add a little more "life" to my vocal (it sounded a bit "bland"). With the latter in mind, I picked up an external tube pre-amp [Behringer Tube ultragain mic-200 ($50 at GC, plus $24 for a cable) ]... it just came in yesterday, and all I have done with it so far is hook up one mic and make sure that I can use the Behringer pre-amp between a mic and the RCA line-in inputs on the Presonus (pre-amp supplies the phantom power). First impression suggests that it will work (thus, with external pre-amps on ch 3&4, you could feed as many as four mics/guitars thru the Inspire), and my sense is that the Behringer has more gain and less noise than the onboard pre-amps. Don't know if the "valve" warmth it adds will really help my vocals that much... maybe I'll get a chance to try it out this weekend. If it looks worthwhile, I might pick up a second small condensor mic to use on the guitar, for three channels (vocals plus double mic-ed guitar).
Anyway... that's where I am so far... definitely still in the learning stages, with the final verdict still out. One thing I am learning is that accumulating paraphenalia (sp?) for recording may be as much an affliction as GAS... already considering running all my inputs thru external pre-amps... looking at other mic options, etc. If anyone wants to point me in the direction of a (free) hosting service that will serve MP3s, I can post up a sound clip or two, once I have some worthy of listening to. Thx for all the advice!
Dave
Here's what I started with:
Presonus Inspire 1394 Firewire interface ($150 from GC)
MXL 2001 (large diaphragm)/ MXL 603 (small diaphragm) "anniversery" pack of mics ($100 new off eBay)
2 for 1 boom stands ($30 from GC)
2 XLR cables (~$24 each from GC)
Pop filter (~$20 from GC)
The Presonus interface is sort of interesting... it has 4 inputs: 2 x mic (XLR with 48V phantom power)/guitar (1/4") on the front (2 channels that can be either mic or guitar), and two line inputs (RCA jacks, no phantom power) on the back. The RCA line inputs are set up to accept keyboards or other instruments, or input from a phono turntable. What is unique is that there are NO controls/pots/switches AT ALL on the box. All is controlled in a software applet running on your computer. Output to the recording computer is thru firewire... it can be powered from the firewire bus if you use a 6 pin cable. With the 4 pin cable from my laptop, I need to use the supplied power supply. There are output jacks for headphones and moniters/speakers. It came bundled with Cubase LE. Setup was pretty easy, with just a few tweaks of my Dell laptop OS to eliminate (I think) pops and skips during recording. May try and tweak it a bit more to lower the latency between playback and recording track (I have it set at 6 msec now, haven't tried lower). Oh... up to 4 Inspires can be "daisy-chained" together feeding one computer work station if additional channels are needed (also, see below)...
I haven't had a lot of time to play with it... since recording requires that the family is out of the house, turning off the heat and frig to eliminate noise, etc. Also, I haven't really any experience with recording to compare it too... but here are my first impressions (there is an EXTENSIVE and very useful review here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1257843).
So far, I have been laying down independent vocal and guitar tracks as several have suggested... double mic-ing the guitar (panned L and R) and then coming back and laying down a third track with vocals (panned center). The first thing to note is that the pre-amps don't provide as much gain as a stand-alone pre-amp might. In fact, they probably don't provide sufficient gain for use with most dynamic mics... With the MXLs condensor mics I have, there is just enough gain for the guitar (so far, just fingerpicking, which is quiter than my cowboy strumming), but a bit of hiss creeps in as the gain passes ~75%, so I have been recording at lower gain, close mic-ing the guitars and boosting the levels later in Cubase. Don't know if it's the room, proximity effect, or characteristics of the mics or pre-amps, but I find that I need to boost the trebles and roll off the bass a bit to get the guitar to sound the way I want. I have really only recorded one decent (tho' "bland") vocal track, so far... and have been learning how to equalize and mix the tracks in Cubase (my photo hosting site can't serve MP3s at this time, so no samples yet).
The biggest frustration for me has been laying down the guitar tracks... keeping track of where I am without singing along. Even when I am going thru the song in my head as I play, I still make more mistakes than when I am playing AND singing. In the three sessions (couple hours each) I have tried, I have played my fingers raw, often getting thru nearly the entire guitar track only to screw up the last bar. ARGH! I also just feel more natural playing while singing and singing while playing... my one vocal track didn't feel natural to me. So, I still want to try laying down vocals and guitar in one pass... but I also want to double mic the guitars (rather than trying to double over the guitar track later). That would require 3 tracks at once... plus, I wanted to add a little more "life" to my vocal (it sounded a bit "bland"). With the latter in mind, I picked up an external tube pre-amp [Behringer Tube ultragain mic-200 ($50 at GC, plus $24 for a cable) ]... it just came in yesterday, and all I have done with it so far is hook up one mic and make sure that I can use the Behringer pre-amp between a mic and the RCA line-in inputs on the Presonus (pre-amp supplies the phantom power). First impression suggests that it will work (thus, with external pre-amps on ch 3&4, you could feed as many as four mics/guitars thru the Inspire), and my sense is that the Behringer has more gain and less noise than the onboard pre-amps. Don't know if the "valve" warmth it adds will really help my vocals that much... maybe I'll get a chance to try it out this weekend. If it looks worthwhile, I might pick up a second small condensor mic to use on the guitar, for three channels (vocals plus double mic-ed guitar).
Anyway... that's where I am so far... definitely still in the learning stages, with the final verdict still out. One thing I am learning is that accumulating paraphenalia (sp?) for recording may be as much an affliction as GAS... already considering running all my inputs thru external pre-amps... looking at other mic options, etc. If anyone wants to point me in the direction of a (free) hosting service that will serve MP3s, I can post up a sound clip or two, once I have some worthy of listening to. Thx for all the advice!
Dave