Best "starter" kit for digital recording...

[GardMan]

Hey all you techno types... Didn't know whether this should be in Misc, or Tech Shop... but here goes...

I have been thinking (for years) of trying a couple simple (digital) recordings for my Mom and family... no fancy multi-track production, just me on vocals and acoustic guitar. But, I need some advice as to where to start.

One of the ground rules... it has to be (relatively) inexpensive, at least to get started. If the experiment is a flop (meaning, I can’t stand the way it sounds), I don’t want to have a lot of $$$ invested.

My first thought was a stand-alone digital recorder... like the Zoom H2 or H4. The H2 is cheaper (under $200)... and might work fine for what I am interested in. But, I am concerned about balancing vocals and guitar with the on-board mics, or just one external mic input. The H4 is ~$100 more. It has only 2 on-board mics (H2 has 4, for "surround" sound)... but has the advantage of 2 external mic inputs, if needed to balance vocal + guitar. It also allows for multi-track recording... not necessary to start, but might be fun to play with later, if things work out (it also comes with editing software for PC). Graham, or anyone else with an H4, want to chime in about its capabilities/ease of use/sound quality? Jeff... I think I saw an H2 in your Xmas stocking... when you have had a chance to play with it, could you share your impressions for simple acoustic recording (1 voice + 1 guitar)?

I know that there are also interfaces/software for recording directly on my laptop or desktop... But haven’t a clue where to start [other than that the H4 (also H2?) can actually be used as interfaces, from what I understand]. My guess would be, that when it all came together (with a couple decent mics, interface to the computer, software, etc), it would cost as much as the H2 (couple hundred $$$)... more versatile in the long run, but bigger learning curve to get started.

Anyone want to share their experiences (pros/cons/suggestions/advice)?
Thx, Dave

 

[Graham]

I haven't used the H4 to it's full capacity Dave, Frosty uses one as well. As far as ease of use, not too many things are easier. Two mics would certainly make things easier when it comes time to clean things up for posting and whatnot, but if you're recording yourself and your guitar, this does a very good job. very clear, can record straight into mp3 or CD quality. If you have the time you can record multi tracks with the internal mic and using built in metronome or play it back through headphones as a kind on monitor I guess. Very portable, runs on an adapter of AA batteries. Packaged with Cubase for mixing.

 

[dklsplace]

Probably not as cheap as some of the basic pc recording stuff, but I have a Yamaha AW16G that I got for a very good price.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... 00,00.html

Probably be able to get my money back out of it if I decide to move on. So far I haven't transfered anything to pc from this so I can't really comment on that aspect. But I like the idea of having all the mastering tools & cd burning capability in one unit. My music room isn't very big you know? :?

 

[Jeff]

Jeff... I think I saw an H2 in your Xmas stocking... when you have had a chance to play with it, could you share your impressions for simple acoustic recording (1 voice + 1 guitar)?

but bigger learning curve to get started.

Anyone want to share their experiences (pros/cons/suggestions/advice)?
Thx, Dave

Dave,

Learing curve is the key word here. I spent a couple hours today wading thru electronic gizmo manuals. Don't know if the people who write tech manuals are right or left brained, whichever, I am the other.

Waded thru enough on the Zoom H2, actually two of us & working together got enough to run the basic record & delete functions. Stumbled a bit getting it to interface with the computer, think I have it now. Thing comes with a 91 page manual. Menus are pretty deep, intimidating, now that I think about it the menus operate much the same as digital cameras... I'm so far of the impression the H2 lacks much of the H4's sophistication.

Mikes are directional to some degree, Had to mess with the input levels, the F 20, up close, was making it distort, turned the levels down to medium. Haven't run the audio thru respectable speakers yet but from what I hear on the headphones I think it's clocking the sound pretty darn well.

Initial interface with the computer transferred the files in WAV format ?? I was of the impression the H2 would transfer the data in MP3 format, must be something I don't know. Anyone with experience & tips is welcome to chime, I'm the remedial class.

Two issues of note so far, geezer related; (1)Freaking screen is pretty doggone small, postage stamp covers the whole screen & then some. (2) Screen is backlighted but has a timer set for a frustrating short duration, this may become less of an issue when & if I become Zoom literate. Could be there's a setting for the timer function loafing in the back menus somewhere.

Smaller than I anticipated, about the size of an overweight cell phone, runs on two AA's...*edit: first set of Duracell
batteries didn't last all that long Be back in a day or so & maybe have the courage to post a clip.

 

[Carol]

(I'm writing this from the perspective of a novice -- so forgive me if I'm giving you information you already have. I'm not a "techy" and it drives me nuts when people "assume" knowledge that I don't have. If you haven't recorded before, you may not know some of the info below.)

Recording on your PC (or Mac) is very easy... and there are some great, inexpensive recording studio software available online! I've been using "n-Track Studio" and it's very good. It costs $64.00 and you can download it to your PC. It works just like a recording studio with a mixing board, vocal effects, etc.

http://www.ntrack.com/

There are others available, I just happen to like this one.

You will just need a couple of things...

A good microphone
A cable (or "lead") that goes from the microphone to the computer microphone port.
Your computer probably has one of the mini-jack ports. I haven't been able to
find a microphone cable that fits that, so I bought a microphone cable with
standard 1/4" jack -- and then an adapter that changes that to a mini-jack.

For your guitar, you can use the same mini-jack adapter.

When recording, you'll want to lay down each track separately. Assuming you have a pick-up on your guitar, you can record that track while you sing, but only the guitar will be recorded. Then you go back and record your voice while singing to the first track. That way you can concentrate on one thing at a time and don't have to get both perfect at the same time.

I wouldn't recommend trying to put a microphone in front of you and try to record both at the same time. Most microphones are very directional, so trying to get a balance between a vocal and guitar at the same time doesn't work well. The volume would have to be turned up high and you get a great deal of background "hiss" and such.

When you get more comfortable with the software, you can re-record "bits" if there's just a line or two that you think you can do better.

Oh -- and one last thing... make sure the kids, dogs, cats, and significant others are watered, fed and in bed -- or better yet, gone... turn off the phones... put a sign on your door -- DO NOT DISTURB... I guarantee while you are recording, you'll finally get that song JUST RIGHT -- and while you're singing that last lovely note... the cat will meow, the dog will bark, the kids will want cookies and your wife will ask you if you have taken out the garbage (it's easier to ask than to look in the bin)!

 

[fronobulax]

Initial interface with the computer transferred the files in WAV format ?? I was of the impression the H2 would transfer the data in MP3 format, must be something I don't know. Anyone with experience & tips is welcome to chime, I'm the remedial class.

No comments on the H2, but...

Not all music file formats are equal. You chose how you want to trade off file size and sound quality and that suggests a format. WAV files have "CD quality" sound which is about the best you are going to get until you start using professional gear for digital recording. They are also very large files. You can reduce file size by using compression. There are "lossless" and "lossy" types of compression. You can always recover an identical version of the original with lossless compression but most lossless compression schemes don't save too much space. Lossy compression does save space but it is also impossible to recover an exact version of the original. Lossy compression works for music because your brain and ear can often work out and supply what is missing when the lossy recording is played back. Audiophiles can certainly tell the difference between a lossless and a lossy compression recording but if you play back a lossy recording on cheap earbuds you probably won't notice anything. MP3 is a lossy file format that is intended to provide a minimum level of perceived sound quality in a minimal file size.

When creating original digital works (audio, still pictures or video) the ideal is to store everything you do in a lossless format. It increases your flexibility during the creative process that follows. It also makes it easy to undo things. That is why the H2 was originally set up to save recordings as WAV files.

You get something similar in cameras - the RAW format being the rough equivalent of the WAV file and various flavors of JPG comparing to MP3. In cameras, however, since most people rarely do significant post processing or make prints bigger than 4x5 it makes sense to cram as many photos on a memory card as possible, thus JPG. The pros, however, use RAW.

Sorry to go so geek on you. Unlike the manual, I will try and answer questions or explain anything that is both unclear and potentially useful to you.

 

[jp]

Hey Dave,
If you want to go with a more traditional method, I think Don's way is a good bet. It's like messing with a classic 4-track recorder, but recording digitally onto a hard disk instead of a cassette. I see used, older digital 4- and 8-track recorders on CL all the time, at $100-300.

If you want to take a stab at a simple audio interface, you can go pretty cheap as well. All you will need is a decent sound card in your computer, a simple USB or Firewire audio interface, a mike, and some cables. Most audio interfaces come with software for mixing. Cubase LE, Ableton Live, Cakewalk SONAR, and Pro Tools LE are most common. You load the software onto your computer, plug the audio interface box into your computer via USB/Firewire cable, plug the mike into the audio interface box, and record. Mix down on-screen. There are lots of choices under $150 for simple audio interfaces that will record one or two tracks. Below are some examples.

Digidesign Mbox 2 Mini
Lexicon Lambda USB Desktop Studio
Lexicon Alpha USB Desktop Recording Studio
Line 6 TonePort UX1 USB Recording/Modeling Interface
M-Audio Fast Track USB Computer Recording Interface
E-MU 0202 USB 2.0 Audio interface

Be aware, though, that if you don't have the experience or patience to fiddle with computer files, you might get frustrated. Be prepared to learn a whole new computer vocabulary for audio files. There are a lot of forums on the net for seeking help, though. You don't need to be super computer savvy, just literate.

Good luck, hope this helps.

 

[Guildmark]

All very cool stuff! But you're cracking me up, jp!
"If you want to go with a more traditional method, I think Don's way is a good bet. It's like messing with a classic 4-track recorder, but recording digitally onto a hard disk instead of a cassette." You whippersnapper!

:lol: I recently (very recently) started using Audacity software to record multitracks on my PC. The problem with this much control is that one never quite finishes. Always tweaking something.

Mostly, though, I still record "live" into two microphones (sometimes into my little mixer first) then into this steam-powered device, purchased around 1983:

Once it's on tape I send it into the PC, through this hose in the back, directly into the Line-In port of the 'puter:

The receiving shareware is usually Polderbits, which is powerful but incredibly simple, and therefore useful.

Everything on my website (Click on Guildmark below) has been recorded this way. At my meager skill (and budget) level this has been satisfactory. I could wish it all fit in my pocket, though.

 

[sfIII]

I've been recording music for a long time. I still have a Nakimichi portable cassette deck. (three channels!). I used DAT tapes for years and have recently started using a MOTU Traveler to go directly to hard drive. The MOTU lets me use four condenser mics and make recording only saved and played by DVD. The Mics are the most expensive part of the package.


My first concern would be what Microphones will you be using? While many good recordings have been made with dynamic mics (passive power), better recordings are made with condenser mics (requires phanom power) and a pre-amp. If you want to save costs stay analog until you go into a computer. Cheap cassette decks are available on E-bay (get a Nakimichi IMO). You have control over the levels with a cassette deck. Cassettes are cheap. You can do mulitple takes.

My advice would be to pay close attention to the location of the mics. and try a bunch of locations. Even a few inches can result in a diffent recording. Try setting the mics in a XY, OTRF in addition to right in front of your mouth and guitar.

 

[jp]

All very cool stuff! But you're cracking me up, jp!
"If you want to go with a more traditional method, I think Don's way is a good bet. It's like messing with a classic 4-track recorder, but recording digitally onto a hard disk instead of a cassette." You whippersnapper!

I guess I was referring to a more traditional interface, Mark. It's probably the closest experience to the ole 4- or 8-track analog setup, while still capturing digital audio files, which is what Gardman wants.

If one wants to record digital files nowadays using a new "starter kit," it's either into the computer, where one has to fuss with software and file formatting, or work with them in a digital workstation like Don's Yamaha recorder. Or of course one of the stereo live recorders like the Zoom H2 that Jeff has. Although recording into an original analog source and then transfer to digital is fine, it's not too difficult to get a clean digital recording file with the newfangled contraptions out there today.

And although on the LTG, I may be a bit of a whippersnapper:
-- I still mainly record on my Ross cassette 4-track,
-- my stereo is the latest Marantz technology from 1979 and my speakers are mid-60s Polks
-- I have more records than CDs
-- and I do not have an iPod!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

BTW Dave, I forgot to mention that you can run guitar, vocals, and effects into a mixer first, and then go into the audio interface to capture the digital file to avoid messing with software so much, if you feel so inclined.

 

[Jeff]

you might get frustrated. Be prepared to learn a whole new computer vocabulary for audio files.
Good luck, hope this helps.

Thanks for the discussion here fellas, it's helping me.


OK, reference new audio file vocab; Operating the H2's mp3 conversion process I'm given several choices. Am I correct is assuming generally the higher "Bit" rate the better the quality of the data.

 

[fronobulax]

Am I correct is assuming generally the higher "Bit" rate the better the quality of the data.

Yes. If you had the patience to read my comments about WAV and MP3, the Bit rate is one parameter that lets you trade off storage space and sound quality. The higher the bit rate the better the sound quality and the bigger the storage requirement. The rule of thumb seems to be 128Kbs is the sweet spot, at least for play back on your typical MP3 player.

 

[GardMan]

Thanks all, for the advice given and yet to come. At this point, I lean towards staying completely digital... I am reasonably familiar with PCs, and have done quite a bit of image processing (and even did some simple video work at one point). I can probably work thru recording software.

Although I was at first nearly swayed by the "gadget factor" of the H2 or H4 (or other mini-recorder), I think I'll look into the cost of a couple mics + stands/cables + USB/firewire acoustic interface + software (the interfaces I have looked at seem to come with "lite" editions of various software packages, which might work fine for me).

My inclination right now would be go with 2 mics... one each for voice and guitar. I know I could save $$$ by going with one mic and laying down the voice and guitar as independent tracks. On the other hand, I am used to singing and playing... and think I would feel even more self conscious singing to a recorded track. Am I crazy?

Additional suggestions and advice is more than welcome!
Dave

 

[Guildmark]

-- and I do not have an iPod!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Me, either, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out! :lol:

 

[GardMan]

-- and I do not have an iPod!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Me, either, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out! :lol:

Me either! Wife "won" one last Christmas, and finally had me set it up for her last month...

 

[GardMan]

My first concern would be what Microphones will you be using? While many good recordings have been made with dynamic mics (passive power), better recordings are made with condenser mics (requires phanom power) and a pre-amp.

I would probably go with condensor mics. So far, the inexpensive recording interfaces I have seen have one mic input and one instrument (e-guitar or other) input... can a second mic connect thru the insturment jack, or does anyone know of an interface with two mic channels?
Dave

 

[Jeff]

Am I correct is assuming generally the higher "Bit" rate the better the quality of the data.

Yes. If you had the patience to read my comments about WAV and MP3, the Bit rate is one parameter that lets you trade off storage space and sound quality. The higher the bit rate the better the sound quality and the bigger the storage requirement. The rule of thumb seems to be 128Kbs is the sweet spot, at least for play back on your typical MP3 player.

Frono,

Thank you sir. Perzactly the info I needed.

Successfully cut & transferred a 3 minute WAV file last night. Playback thru Klipch computer speakers was surprising. Need to do it over with more boost on the mike input, adjust the Gain level lower & experiment with more space between the git & the recorder.

H2 records the GF pretty sweet, so far plenty good enough for what I need. Wasn't for a subconscious off key vocal humming I never realized was audible I'd be tempted to post it up.

 

[Carol]

GardMan -- Now this is JUST my opinion so take it for what it's worth...

I've worked on five CD projects in the past two years. I'm used to playing and singing at the same time so I did the first project recording both tracks at once. I soon found I have "red light phobia" -- as soon as the record button is pressed, I tend to tense up a bit. I couldn't relax which led to mistake after mistake -- if I played my guitar correctly, I flubbed a lyric... if I sang it well, I messed up on the guitar somewhere. And because the two tracks were recorded together ... I would have to go back to the beginning and do the whole thing over... and over... and over... To this day, I hate that CD. There are still a lot of small mistakes that I "let go" because I couldn't face playing the darn thing again!

The next four projects, I laid down in individual tracks. I played the guitar first with a direct line in so I could sing away... but I could concentrate on my playing because if I messed up a lyric, it wasn't a big deal... A couple of takes for each guitar track and I was ready to add the singing. I put the microphone in front of my face... And a couple of takes later the vocal was finished. If I didn't like the way I phrased a word or something, I'd just re-record a short phrase. While I was recording the vocal, I would sometimes play my guitar at the same time quietly of course, but it helped me keep my rhythm and feel for the song. The microphone is very directional so any "bleed" was minor.

So in my experience, laying down one track at a time is MUCH less frustrating...

OH -- and n-Track (that I mentioned early) has a demo version you can download if you want to mess with it. It does look and work just like a digital recording studio with effects, mixing desk, EQ, etc.

Okay... now I'll go lay by my dish...

 

[Graham]

Great info Carol, thanks.

Good girl. :wink: :mrgreen:

 

[fronobulax]

Great info Carol, thanks.

Good girl. :wink: :mrgreen:

With benefits and a GPS. :wink: