1978 F212XL Needs TLC

[tuckfoot]

Here to introduce myself to LTG. I’m a music mastering engineer from New York, now living and working in Monterrey, Mexico, as lead designer of the music technology program at Tecnologico de Monterrey.

I am a lifelong player (guitar, clarinet) who has been enjoying this forum immensely. Now I'm looking for advice about how to proceed with a 1978 Guild F212XL. This guitar is a huge change for me, as most of my experience has been with a Martin D12-35 which I bought new in 1968. I wanted to know what Guild is all about! I love the size, clarity and balance of the sound. Super excited to finally have a big Guild.

Right now it’s wearing D’Addario Light EJ38 Bronze, tuned down a half step. The immediate problems are buzzing in low E and a cracked bridge. Photos are attached (I hope). The low E buzzes with medium fingerpicking with capo on 2nd fret. Would be nice to fix that.

Without capo, 1st fret low E measures 2/64, and high E just under 2/64.
12th fret low E is 8/64, and high E 6/64.

With G7th capo at 1st fret, low E at 2nd fret is 2/64, and high E under 2/64.
12th fret, low E is 8/64 and high E is 5/64.

I have the truss rod wrench, though I have no experience using it. Despite the bridge crack, this lovely F212XL is holding pitch nicely (tuned Eb-Eb).

In Monterrey, Mx, I have been unable to find a local luthier expert in steel string acoustic guitars. This is an electric guitar town — that or nylon classical. To visit a luthier might require a physical trip to South Texas. While international shipping makes me nervous, the easiest trip would be to Laredo, TX (3-4 hours by car).

The photos show some of this stuff.

Pleasure to be here. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[dreadnut]

Welcome, and nice score!

First, I would get that bridge crack repaired, a qualified luthier would be able to perform that repair very inexpensively. And a professional setup. Our TX members could probably recommend a luthier.

But if you don't mind shipping it, our LTG member Richard has a superb repair guy in Florida, can't remember his name.

 

[SFIV1967]

Welcome to LTG!

But if you don't mind shipping it, our LTG member Richard has a superb repair guy in Florida, can't remember his name.

That's our own member Fixit! (Tom Jacobs)

Jacobs Custom Guitars – Custom Guitars & Guitar Repair

www.jacobscustomguitars.com

Ralf

 

[HeyMikey]

Welcome! That is a lovely big gal. The neck angle is a little low, but you should be able to work with it. The action is on the high side but it looks like there is room in the saddle to lower it a bit. Normal spec is 5-6/64 Low E, 4-5/64 high E. First though the neck relief should be adjusted so it isn’t too flat or bowed, and the nut slot height checked.

If you are getting the bridge glued, which it should be, then I agree that getting a pro set-up at the same time would be a very good idea. Then they can also dress the frets and get the intonation right.

 

[gjmalcyon]

Welcome! Stick around - nice folks around here. My F-212XL now lives with a nephew - it needed a neck reset but my luthier could not get the neck off. Close inspection suggested the neck was off before and re-glued with glue that will not yield to heat and steam. My luthier shaved the bridge, lowered the saddle, ramped the string slots and it still sounded magnificent.

This is her, with the Marlo Thomas "That Girl" pickguards:

 

[tuckfoot]

Yes, I need to fix the cracked bridge before expecting a good setup. It would be great if there were an LTG referral to a fine luthier in South Texas -- anywhere up to San Antonio would be perfect.

If no joy in that neck of the woods, then I could ship it (reluctantly). With a referral or two I would call ahead to see who isn't already swamped with work.

 

[gjmalcyon]

+1 to the recommendation for Fixit (Tom Jacobs) above: He has worked on many guitars for LTG members to uniformly rave reviews. It doesn't hurt that he also once worked for Guild.

 

[lonesome picker]

...and Mr Tuckfoot is a Model Railroader - judging from his choice of straight edge.

I have exactly the same General Tools Model Railroad Reference Ruler on my workbench.....

 

[chazmo]

@Scratch @West R Lee I know you guys aren't in S Texas, but do you have a recommendation for our new member?

Tuckfoot, my own opinion is that I'd see if you can get that into playable shape before determining that a neck reset is needed. That neck angle ain't great, but it ain't terrible either. Might be doable with some saddle/nut shaving here and there...

 

[tuckfoot]

...and Mr Tuckfoot is a Model Railroader - judging from his choice of straight edge.

I have exactly the same General Tools Model Railroad Reference Ruler on my workbench.....

Ha! Guilty, your Honor -- It's true. I am a lover of model trains. Though I haven't been able to indulge that vice for many years, the General Tools Reference Ruler is always with me.

 

[tuckfoot]

I plan to contact Tom Jacobs, though an option in South Texas would be more within striking distance from Monterrey Mx.

 

[West R Lee]

Ross Jennings in New Braunfels, Texas is Scratch's guy, and he's good. Though I don't know if Ross does neck resets anymore.

West

 

[GardMan]

...and Mr Tuckfoot is a Model Railroader - judging from his choice of straight edge.

I have exactly the same General Tools Model Railroad Reference Ruler on my workbench.....

Got the same ruler, myself!

You may be able to repair the bridge crack yourself, particularly if it closes up a little when you take the strings off. I fixed a similar (tho' not quite as wide) crack in my D-50. Basically,

(1) Remove the strings. Put some blotting paper or something thru the soundhole under the bridge area, to catch any drips. Mask off the top of the guitar, leaving only the bridge accessible.

(2) Carefully blow/brush/work some wood* dust (*ebony if its an ebony bridge, rosewood if a rosewood bridge) into the crack. I bought an ebony end pin from StewMac and sanded it a bit to make my ebony dust.

(3) Carefully wick in some "water thin" (meaning really runny) super glue, available from Steward McDonald. I used a micropipet to run the superglue along and into the crack.

(4) Then gently sand smooth (with the grain)... I think I started with 400 grit paper, and worked my way thru 600, 800, 1200...

Make sure the glue is COMPLETELY dry before re-stringing.

I don't have a "before" picture, but here is an after:

There was a crack that ran thru all the pin holes, extending about 1/4" to either side of the bass/treble pins. Nearly invisible after the repair, and stable for the 7 years I owned it...

 

[West R Lee]

Got the same ruler, myself!

You may be able to repair the bridge crack yourself, particularly if it closes up a little when you take the strings off. I fixed a similar (tho' not quite as wide) crack in my D-50. Basically,

(1) Remove the strings. Put some blotting paper or something thru the soundhole under the bridge area, to catch any drips. Mask off the top of the guitar, leaving only the bridge accessible.

(2) Carefully blow/brush/work some wood* dust (*ebony if its an ebony bridge, rosewood if a rosewood bridge) into the crack. I bought an ebony end pin from StewMac and sanded it a bit to make my ebony dust.

(3) Carefully wick in some "water thin" (meaning really runny) super glue, available from Steward McDonald. I used a micropipet to run the superglue along and into the crack.

(4) Then gently sand smooth (with the grain)... I think I started with 400 grit paper, and worked my way thru 600, 800, 1200...

Make sure the glue is COMPLETELY dry before re-stringing.

I don't have a "before" picture, but here is an after:

There was a crack that ran thru all the pin holes, extending about 1/4" to either side of the bass/treble pins. Nearly invisible after the repair, and stable for the 7 years I owned it...

And that is precisely what Ross Jennings did to a D55 I had. The crack was invisible afterward, and stable.

West

 

[tuckfoot]

Bought the General Railroad Ruler around 1964 or so, putting together my first HO layout in Valley Stream, New York. Been with me ever since.

I appreciate all the input about the F-212XL cracked bridge, but there's NO WAY I'm going to start learning about rosewood dust, wicking glue, masking and sanding while working on this wonderful old beast. Besides, it also needs a professional setup.

From here in northeast Mexico (Monterrey), I can get the guitar taken by hand to San Antonio, Texas, by a trusted friend who has a strong contact at Guitar Tex right there in San Antonio. They seem to have a good reputation working on vintage acoustic instruments. So, with fingers and toes crossed, I packed it up yesterday. Fully comfy and immobilized in the case.

 

[Cougar]

I appreciate all the input about the F-212XL cracked bridge, but there's NO WAY I'm going to start learning about rosewood dust, wicking glue, masking and sanding while working on this wonderful old beast. Besides, it also needs a professional setup.

Welcome to LTG! I'm with you there. Lots of guys "do it themselves," but my guitars are too precious for anyone but a professional to be working or tweaking on 'em.

From here in northeast Mexico (Monterrey), I can get the guitar taken by hand to San Antonio, Texas, by a trusted friend who has a strong contact at Guitar Tex right there in San Antonio.

Perfect! I figured you could find a good luthier or repair tech in south Texas. As mentioned, that neck angle does not look great. Might be time to go ahead and have a neck reset so you don't have to shave the bridge, etc., but of course see what the luthier says.

I can't say enough about jumbo Guild 12-strings! They're just the greatest!

 

[valleyguy]

Let us know how it goes. It looks like a neck reset is not necessary, as several have mentioned, a shaved bridge, lowered saddle and a setup, you should be golden. You've got a keepsake there.

 

[kostask]

It really depends on what you want. If it is indeed to be kept as an heirloom/keepsake and played, then a neck re-set is called for. If you intend to sell it in the near future, or do not see it being played long term, then shave the bridge and do what it takes to make it playable now.

Do not be under any delusions: the guitar needs a neck re-set. It is plain and simple. Shaving bridges, or lowering a saddle can make a guitar more playable. It does NOT eliminate the need for a neck reset, long-term. Judging from the 3 bridge pictures you posted, the string break angle looks really shallow right now, and I don't know that there is much, if any more lowering of the saddle possible. Your bridge is already cracked in two places, which, while they are repairable, it would be best to replace the bridge.

As I said in the start, it is up to you to decide on all of this.

As a personal note, I am adamantly opposed to the shaving of bridges. The bridge height serves as a datum point in the setting of a neck's angle. It can be shaved to delay the need for a neck reset, but it is not a substitute for a neck reset. What you end up doing is altering the reference point from which you take the neck angle during the reset. You can use "ballpark" figures for bridge height, and they may or may not work out. But they will NOT be correct, unless measurements were taken before the bridge was shaved, and kept for use when the bridge is replaced. And who does that? Probably close to no one.

 

[Cougar]

As a personal note, I am adamantly opposed to the shaving of bridges.

I agree. It's a temporary fix to shave the bridge. Problem is, when the neck does eventually need to be reset, you can't then use the shaved bridge -- you'll need a new bridge (and it might be hard to find a period-correct bridge). It's a real beauty of a guitar though. Fingers crossed on the luthier's report!

 

[tuckfoot]

Luthier says my 1979 Guild F-212XL definitely has a neck reset in its future, but that it can be made very playable by fixing the bridge cracks with glue, slight shaving of the saddle, and relief adjustment.

The bridge is now fixed. Here are photos showing bridge before & after.

From the luthier's report:
Action at 12th 6/64"(low E) to 4-5/64" (high E) Relief .002"
Notes: Taking the saddle lower may induce buzzing from improper break angle towards the back row of strings/ bridge pins at the bridge. The low E course plays clean for me up the neck and only buzzes when I play aggressively to induce buzz. The low E course is set closer to edge of the fingerboard in first position per the spacing of the nut in comparison to the high E course.


Don't know the significance of the observation that low and high E courses are not equidistant from the edge of fingerboard. A photo is here.

The guitar is in San Antonio, Texas, and I live in Monterrey, Mexico. So the time is right for any questions.

Gracias a todos!