Why Is the Modern D50 So Heavy?

[count savage]

I'm curious why my Tacoma-built D50 is so heavy compared to similar higher end Adirondack Spruce and rosewood guitars? According to Will at Spruce Tree Music, it will nonetheless 'eat every one else's lunch' at a guitar pick-off, (I take his word for this) meaning it's pretty loud and projects very well as a bluegrass, flat-picking guitar. Typically guitar makers try to make them as light as possible without being so unsupported as to cave in. My D50, built in '08, is a beautiful looking and sounding guitar, but the weight thing perplexes me. Both my Larrivee and Gibson are a lot lighter. Any thoughts?

 

[FNG]

I think it might be the chunky neck and bigger headstock.

 

[chazmo]

I think it's your DTAR system, Savage... That load'nlock thing is pretty chunky. What do you think? My experience with the Tacoma-built Guilds was that they were seemingly *less* heavy than their Westerly counterparts.

 

[taabru45]

Nice to hear from you again Count.... Steffan

 

[count savage]

Well, I think you all are probably right about the weight of the neck -- it's really heavy and well supported -- and the headstock, and then the D-Tar add quite a bit of weight. I'd be interested in comparing it with a non electric D50. It's really a profound difference, though. You go in to a guitar shop and pick up a Bourgeois -- the new, seemingly preferred flat-picker guitar -- or a Collings or Lowden or Santa Cruz or Gallagher or Larrivee -- they're quite a bit lighter. The custom builders like Olson or Petros try to make them as light as they can. I can't help but wonder if maybe that's been a strike against Guild among the guitar afficianados. Well, that said, the Guild sounds phenomenal through a PA. Not quacky at all thanks to the D-Tar, and very very accurate to a true acoustic guitar sound. The upside is if you're going to use it live, it's sturdy enough that it's going to stand up to the rigors of the road. Nobody's taking $12,000 Olsons out on tour....

 

[taabru45]

I've been playing old heavy Guilds for years......when I got my Larivee 09 3 years ago, I loved its tone, but still light guitars feel 'fragile' to me...though I know they are well built...even the lighter Guilds. :wink: Steffan

 

[count savage]

Steffan, I agree. My Larrivee feels a little fragile to me as well. I'm much less comfortable playing hard on it, or beating on it a little. No problem at all with the Guild. It will take everything I've got. In fact, according to Jean Larrivee, new guitars need some hard hitting and playing to help them open up. And that Adirondock spruce on the Guild is hard! So yeah, no problem really attacking the Guild. By the way, do you still have the Larrivee 09? I think those are stunning sounding guitars, one of my favorites of the entire line.

 

[cjd-player]

Indian Rosewood is a heavy wood, and it's density can vary from tree to tree, depending upon how it grew.
Your D-50 may have some that is on the high end of the density range.

In addition, during our tour of New Hartford, our guide, Frank, mentioned that the guitars from Tacoma were not dimensionally consistent because of variations in the tooling and a lot of hand sanding. For example, he pointed out that the body molds were not all the same height even for the same guitar model. So the body of one Tacoma D-50 could actually be slightly deeper than the body of another Tacoma D-50. Also, the back and sides were not necessarily sanded to the same thickness from guitar to guitar in the same model.

So you could have some especially dense rosewood in addition to some thicker back and side pieces. Those things would make for a heavier guitar.

By the way, dimensional consistency from guitar to guitar is one of the improvements made at the New Hartford factory by virtue of new tooling. They use very little of the old Tacoma tooling.

 

[taabru45]

Still have it Count, its a cutaway with Baggs system....made in Vancouver so probably 12-14 years old...Funny thing is, was at the music store, trying out some nice guitars including a nice variety of Larrivees. the bottom end is around $1200..up to around 3600...and there is this one which I ignored because I didn't want to break my heart, and it looked so good..a bit more honey toned but I thought it was new, not a mark on it....took it down an played it......It melted my heart, drat....then I checked the price...Around $1400 I think.....Whoa........took it to the counter and said 'tell me about this guitar'
'Someone traded it in'
'on what???'
I think someone need money and sold it to us'
Here is $20 put it in its case and I'll be back'
a year of payments later It was mine......will be interesting to compare it to the newish D50 I'll be getting later this month...then we'll see if it stays.....great guitar though..and beautiful. Steffan

 

[valleyguy]

Nobody's taking $12,000 Olsons out on tour....

Except James Taylor....

 

[valleyguy]

I've got the wavelength in my Tacoma D50, it does add some weight, but what, a pound or two?

I've picked up NH D40s and D50s and they seem to weigh the same to me, both heavier than most any other guitar in the shop. Guilds have always been heavier, AND I'd sure like to know why. My Martin is as much the cannon that my D50 is, but weighs a lot less.

 

[twocorgis]

My '73 D50 is a tank, and I think a lot of that is due to the earlier bracing scheme that Westerly used up to '75 IIRC. Feels very robust though. My Martin D18DC is very light, as is the Collings, though it's somewhat heavier and has a K&K installed.

My luthier isn't really a huge Guild fan, and thinks they're "overbuilt". He believes that the lighter the bracing is under the top, the more the top vibrates; hence more sound. The Martin really has tremendous projection, and some of that might also be due to the oversized sound hole as well. I'm looking forward to getting the D50 back from Nashville (if they ever get done with it) to do an A/B with the Collings. If the D50 wins, I'll probably sell the Collings. If the Collings wins, I'll keep both! :lol:

 

[adorshki]

By the way, dimensional consistency from guitar to guitar is one of the improvements made at the New Hartford factory by virtue of new tooling. They use very little of the old Tacoma tooling.

Wonder how far back that tooling went? Sounds like typical variations we'ver heard about on Westerlys! :lol:

 

[adorshki]

I've got the wavelength in my Tacoma D50, it does add some weight, but what, a pound or two?
I've picked up NH D40s and D50s and they seem to weigh the same to me, both heavier than most any other guitar in the shop. Guilds have always been heavier, AND I'd sure like to know why. My Martin is as much the cannon that my D50 is, but weighs a lot less.

Actually as others have noted I think Guild covered the weight spectrum depending on build era. My '96 D25's a true featherweight, one of the lightest guitars I've ever felt and others agree. My F65ce's actually heavier even though it's smaller but that's probably due to all the maple. I don't think the Fishman in there weighs THAT much, maybe 8 oz including the battery?

 

[dapmdave]

I have a Martin D-35 and a Guild D-50... both EIR dreads. The Guild does have a somewhat thicker neck. But the Guild is just way heavier than the Martin. The Martin doesn't feel fragile to me, but it does feel more lively when played. The Guild feels solid and sounds good, but not as lively in your hands.

It does seem like the finish on the Guild is thicker. Is this enough to make such a difference?

Dave

 

[yettoblaster]

...My luthier isn't really a huge Guild fan, and thinks they're "overbuilt"...

I always experienced Guilds that way in the past, but was very surprized the first time I took my Tacoma-made D40 off the rack in the store because it was as light and responsive as any world class dread I've ever experienced.

I always thought rosewood was heavier, as a wood?

 

[twocorgis]

...My luthier isn't really a huge Guild fan, and thinks they're "overbuilt"...

I always experienced Guilds that way in the past, but was very surprized the first time I took my Tacoma-made D40 off the rack in the store because it was as light and responsive as any world class dread I've ever experienced.

I always thought rosewood was heavier, as a wood?

I think it is IIRC. My luthier still thinks that they were the best US-made guitar in the '70s, "overbuilt" as they are. I think there is something to the lightweight acoustic thing, though.

 

[adorshki]

I always thought rosewood was heavier, as a wood?

Isn't it 'hog? Or were you just asking the general question? In any case I think it's mostly going to be due to how thin they got the back/sides/top and the braces in that particular git, like Chazmo said.

 

[adorshki]

I think it is IIRC. My luthier still thinks that they were the best US-made guitar in the '70s, "overbuilt" as they are. I think there is something to the lightweight acoustic thing, though.

Absolutely denser/stiffer and why it's still a popular standard for fret boards and bridges. And proabably why it has discernable difference in acoustic properties from 'hog.
Lightweight build is supposed to equate to better resonance inside the body, less sound energy being soaked up by all the wood mass. My guess is that Guild compensated for that with extremely well-built tops since that's the most important element of the instrument.

 

[southernGuild]

:lol: Every time I see this post, i can Hear Abbey road riffs in my mind!.'She's so........bum-bum-bum-bum bum.....HEAVvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvY!!!'
I might need to put that one on today! :lol:
'turn me on Dead man!' :wink: