Why is Fender so reprehensible?

[california]

Cal,

I'd buy your arguement about eliminating the competition if Fender had ever built an acoustic guitar that could compete. Seriously, this is the part of the Fender buyout of Guild that I can't seem to grasp. Fender acoustics were not a competitor of Guild at the time, nor were they competing with Martin or Gibson. Fender acoustics, to the best of my knowledge, have never had a reputation that I am aware of.

West

I think you misunderstood me. Fender acoustics have always had a reputation -- cr**p! Have you ever seen those things with the torsion bars that go from the neck to the strap button on the inside?!?!? And people say Guilds are heavy! I think that Fender bought Guild not as much to preserve the acoustic line as they did to eliminate some competition on the electric side. The first think they did was dilute the electric market with DeArmonds that ate away at Guild's share, then they killed most of the electrics entirely. The only Guilds that Fender acoustics can compete with are lower end GADs.

 

[West R Lee]

I'm sorry Cal, I stand (sit actually) corrected, Fender did have an acoustic reputation. Very good point on the electrics, I'm just always in an acoustic frame of mind.

West

 

[Jeff]

Have you ever seen those things with the torsion bars that go from the neck to the strap button on the inside?!?!

Torsion bars is a kindness for that particular piece of Fender technology.. It's a piece of pipe screwed into the body of the guitar. It's my favorite Fender acoustic model, it doubles nicely as a water heater on camping trips.

Cal , did you get my PM on Seattle luthiers.

 

[fungusyoung]

Re: Two cents

I've played some of the Tacoma Guilds and have been suitably impressed. Perhaps Fender has finally done something right. But then....look at the prices on those puppies. Losh, but they're steep. Still, a good start and one with promise.

I think this is a great point that's been a bit overshadowed by all of the GAD debate within this thread.

Again, I'm a very big fan of Fender electrics, including those made today. But, Fender has really hurt the Guild line. I'm not trying to say that the Tacoma's aren't very, very nice guitars either. But, the current strategy seems to have Fender wanting to compete with the likes of Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, etc. with the Guild lines based on their price points.

I'll be honest- if I were to purchase a new guitar in the "GAD" range I'd go with an all mahogany 15 series Martin. In this price range, I think Martin and others clean Fender's clock. To me, it's not even in the same quality or tonal ballpark.

Then there's the Tacomas. If I'm gonna spend around $2K on a new acoustic, it's would be for a D-28, D-35, a Gibson J-45 or a Larrivee D-09. There are tons of other well established and reputable options in that range.

I don't think Fender has even come close to restoring the Guild reputation to do well with their newer high end models. What boggles my mind the most is their total departure from what made Guild a GREAT guitar builder during the Westerly era... solid wood, beautiful tones, excellent construction and reasonable prices. Others prove it's still possible to do this, but I think Fender's focus is obviously elsewhere.

 

[West R Lee]

Very well put Fungus. I know that you don't make comparisons between Martin, Taylor and Gibson and the old Westerlys, but to me, for 2k, there are still plenty of damned fine Westerlys out there.

You definately make a great arguement.

West

 

[FNG]

Re: Two cents

I've played some of the Tacoma Guilds and have been suitably impressed. Perhaps Fender has finally done something right. But then....look at the prices on those puppies. Losh, but they're steep. Still, a good start and one with promise.

I think this is a great point that's been a bit overshadowed by all of the GAD debate within this thread.

Again, I'm a very big fan of Fender electrics, including those made today. But, Fender has really hurt the Guild line. I'm not trying to say that the Tacoma's aren't very, very nice guitars either. But, the current strategy seems to have Fender wanting to compete with the likes of Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, etc. with the Guild lines based on their price points.

I'll be honest- if I were to purchase a new guitar in the "GAD" range I'd go with an all mahogany 15 series Martin. In this price range, I think Martin and others clean Fender's clock. To me, it's not even in the same quality or tonal ballpark.

Then there's the Tacomas. If I'm gonna spend around $2K on a new acoustic, it's would be for a D-28, D-35, a Gibson J-45 or a Larrivee D-09. There are tons of other well established and reputable options in that range.

I don't think Fender has even come close to restoring the Guild reputation to do well with their newer high end models. What boggles my mind the most is their total departure from what made Guild a GREAT guitar builder during the Westerly era... solid wood, beautiful tones, excellent construction and reasonable prices. Others prove it's still possible to do this, but I think Fender's focus is obviously elsewhere.

I think the US Guilds are at a great price point. Price a Martin D-28 with Red Spruce top versus a D-50 Bluegrass Special. Pretty significant price difference.

 

[Squawk]

I generally agree with Fungus. I think the GAD's competitors include Epis. Takamines, etc. - but also two good USA-made models: Martin's D15 series and Taylor's 214 - both under $1K, both great players and nice looking - plain-jane, but nice. Both come with good hardshell cases, and while sound is subjective and different, both are worthy instruments.

Somehow, I think if Guild revived lower-end models, like the 5 series, and made them in Tacoma, there might be a market.

Regarding the comment about elminating Guild electrics to increase competition, I partly buy the argument as by eliminating X150-160-170-180 or whatever, they decrease competition for their recently acquired orient-made Gretsch line. Otherwise, they gain nothing from eliminating Starfires and not reintroducing solidbodies.

 

[dreadnut]

I'll agree with FNG here, if I had the money to plunk down the Tacoma Guild D-50 Bluegrass Special would be it. I played one at Elderly and that thing was on fire, stood up most of the Martins and Taylors in the room

My point to Graham has been that you can get a vintage Westerly D-50 for half that price.

Gibsons shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. Where do they get off asking $2.5K for a basic mahogany guitar? Then try and find one that's come out of their acoustic factory recently that doesn't have any manufacturing defects :evil:

 

[guildzilla]

You folks really have had me thinking hard about these issues, big picture and details, of the decline of American guitar manufacturing.

I apologize for this being totally from the perspective of a USA citizen.

Consider this: in the early 70's it appeared that the leading American guitar companies were in an enviable position, including Gibson, Martin, Fender, Guild, Rickenbacker and Gretsch.

All had seen surges in sales and profits during the 60's. Most, if not all, had just built or expanded modern factories and hired many new hands to work in fairly-clean, high-wage, high-pride environments.

All had produced a share of all the iconic instruments of the 60's guitar boom and together they had a lock on all the top players. The instruments were part of the myth. What a marketing strength!

All had a reputation for quality, as well as innovation. (One could argue that the US auto industry got greedy on the marketing side, lazy at the drawing board and sloppy on the production line. I don't think that applies as much to the guitar makers).

What steel, autos and guitars did have in common was that all had probably overexpanded production capacity, circa 1972. With guitars, the boom was flattening out as the baby boomers grew up. There was an adjustment to be made there, already. Complicating that adjustment was a sudden flood of import competition for guitars, steel, and autos. This flood never really ceased in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and US government never took any meaningful steps to protect its industry. These other governments, however, were heavily protecting their own markets and subsidizing the industries mentioned. Furthermore, due to the high value of the dollar, compared to foreign currency, American goods became tremendously expensive in all export markets.

Slowly, sadly, surely, American manufacturers accepted the whole global view and international corporate mentality. Now the ones left standing - Fender and Gibson - have closed factories, such as Westerly and Kalamazoo, that had spectacular histories and are building an increasing share of their product overseas.

When we grieve about the Guild that was, it is for just one portion of lost Americana that we treasured. Multiply it by all those other sectors of the US economy - autos, steel, baseball gloves, electronics - and for me it is a tremendous loss for American culture and economic well-being.

The last baseball glove I bought for my son, when I got home I saw it was made in the Republic of Vietnam. GAD, the irony!

BTW, Martin seemed to recognize what was coming, as it focused on what it did best - high end acoustics. I admire what they accomplished.

Sorry. This was too long and probably not the time and place for such a rant.

"They're tearing the Buick City complex down,
I think we're the only people left in town."
-Old 97's

 

[Jeff]

Somehow, I think if Guild revived lower-end models, like the 5 series, and made them in Tacoma, there might be a market.

After reading a 2002 article in the Seattle Times reference Tacoma Guitars, I'd guess Fender's plan for the lower end under American made guitars might be the Tacoma line.

Maybe there's room for both but I'd focus the Guild Line on competing successfully with the better Martins & Taylors.

http://o.seattletimes.nwsource.com/paci ... cover.html

 

[West R Lee]

Well, it was a big night for the kid tonight. I'll tell you about it and then I think you'll see how it relates to this thread.

My wife and I left the house early this afternoon just to go visit her folks and then let the wind blow us where it would. We shopped a little and then ended up at Books a Million where they happened to be having "Bluegrass Jam"....first Saturday of each month. Anyway, when I got there, low and behold, there were a couple of folks that had been there a few weeks ago when I played the Assisted Living Center. I walked up while they were playing, and was asked to sit in with them. In fact, had an Alvarez crammed in my face and told to play. Probably over 100 folks watching, but absolutely no time to get nervous. I really enjoyed it.

About 2 seats away from me was a man I'll call Mr. B, who is not only somewhat of a legend in this half of the state, but also the last man to be a Guild dealer in my area. Mr. B had owned 2 stores in East Texas and 2 in Central Texas. Between songs, I asked him if I could speak with him after the show. He and I talked for about an hour afterwards. You see, I used to go into his small shop here and play his Guilds. Then one day he stopped carrying Guild, I had asked him then why he no longer carried them, but this has been a little over 10 years ago, and I couldn't remember the answer, but thought I knew without asking, or at least, had some idea. He closed his shop a couple of years ago and I never thought I'd see him again as he is well up in years now. Then tonight, there he was just a few feet away.

Mr. B informed me tonight that in 1995, Fender bought Guild (I knew that one). His words, not mine..... he said that from that point on, Fender wouldn't give him the time of day. He said that the relationship went from one of very pleasant cooperation with Guild, to a very adversarial one with Fender. He said that finally, one day, after having tried to get in touch with the area Fender/Guild rep. for quite some time, the rep. told him that Fender no longer wished to deal with him, and just like that, the relationship was over. Mr. B is one of the finest people I've ever met, and I certainly can't imagine him ever being confrontational with anyone. He stopped carrying the Guild line. I stopped going to his shop. Tonight, I found out why he no longer carried anything that interested me.

Draw your own conclusion.

West

 

[california]

You folks really have had me thinking hard about these issues, big picture and details, of the decline of American guitar manufacturing.


BTW, Martin seemed to recognize what was coming, as it focused on what it did best - high end acoustics. I admire what they accomplished.


"They're tearing the Buick City complex down,
I think we're the only people left in town."
-Old 97's

Excuse me -- but have you been to a Guitar Center lately??? Even the venerable Martin is capable of diluting their brand, with dozens of low priced models with laminated woods, SYNTHETIC fretboards (something not even Fender has done to Guild -- yet), cheap finishes and low prices. Some of these under $1000 Martins, which include rosewood models, make GADs look and sound like works of art.

 

[guildzilla]

Agreed. There are no virgins here. But Martin remains, I think, privately held. The heart of their business is the high-end Nazareth stuff and recognition of the value of their craftsmen.

I'm not an expert and can't pretend to debate this in great detail.

 

[fungusyoung]

I know that you don't make comparisons between Martin, Taylor and Gibson and the old Westerlys, but to me, for 2k, there are still plenty of damned fine Westerlys out there.

I left the Westerly-built Guilds out of this for a very good reason!:lol:

I think the US Guilds are at a great price point. Price a Martin D-28 with Red Spruce top versus a D-50 Bluegrass Special. Pretty significant price difference.

Of course this is subjective, but I think the standard D-28 is a better sounding guitar than the D-50... and for not much more $. Also, when I bought my D-16GT earlier this year, I tried out both the newer Guild D-25's and D-40's. IMO, I spent less money and got a better guitar in the Martin. I don't care if the fingerboard is made of micarta... this stuff is sleek, fast as lighting, sounds great and it will last forever/not be subject to weathering. Try it before you criticize it.

Somehow, I think if Guild revived lower-end models, like the 5 series, and made them in Tacoma, there might be a market.

This is exactly what I was wondering about. If Fender wants to continue with GAD's that's fine, but I think they could get much more out of Tacoma and really compete in that $600- $1,200 range instead of going after the high end/boutique market without much re-newed name recognition yet.

Here's a familar story: My local set up guy (who has a stellar reputation and used to run a larger semi-chain shop) still wants nothing to do with Guild since the Fender takeover. He told me recently he wants to get a Westerly D-50 or something like it with rosewood sides so I've talked to him about considering a DV-52.

Whether Fender wants to admit it or not, they have a perception problem that's gone on for years with the quality of Guild acoustics so I don't know how their strategy of going after the top end of the market will work out.

Honestly, I'm hoping Guild makes the comeback they deserve, but I have major doubts about the way Fender's gone about it so far... Tacoma quality notwithstanding.

 

[FNG]

I know that you don't make comparisons between Martin, Taylor and Gibson and the old Westerlys, but to me, for 2k, there are still plenty of damned fine Westerlys out there.

I left the Westerly-built Guilds out of this for a very good reason!:lol:

I think the US Guilds are at a great price point. Price a Martin D-28 with Red Spruce top versus a D-50 Bluegrass Special. Pretty significant price difference.

Of course this is subjective, but I think the standard D-28 is a better sounding guitar than the D-50... and for not much more $. Also, when I bought my D-16GT earlier this year, I tried out both the newer Guild D-25's and D-40's. IMO, I spent less money and got a better guitar in the Martin. I don't care if the fingerboard is made of micarta... this stuff is sleek, fast as lighting, sounds great and it will last forever/not be subject to weathering. Try it before you criticize it.

Somehow, I think if Guild revived lower-end models, like the 5 series, and made them in Tacoma, there might be a market.

This is exactly what I was wondering about. If Fender wants to continue with GAD's that's fine, but I think they could get much more out of Tacoma and really compete in that $600- $1,200 range instead of going after the high end/boutique market without much re-newed name recognition yet.

Here's a familar story: My local set up guy (who has a stellar reputation and used to run a larger semi-chain shop) still wants nothing to do with Guild since the Fender takeover. He told me recently he wants to get a Westerly D-50 or something like it with rosewood sides so I've talked to him about considering a DV-52.

Whether Fender wants to admit it or not, they have a perception problem that's gone on for years with the quality of Guild acoustics so I don't know how their strategy of going after the top end of the market will work out.

Honestly, I'm hoping Guild makes the comeback they deserve, but I have major doubts about the way Fender's gone about it so far... Tacoma quality notwithstanding.

Martin is a benchmark guitar. Got a custom D-41 on reserve at Mandolin Bros. But again, compare the price of a Adirondack Red Spurce top D-28, not sitka, and a D-50 Bluegrass Special. That puts you into the Marquis level, and them ain't cheap.

 

[Squawk]

...Even the venerable Martin is capable of diluting their brand, with dozens of low priced models with laminated woods, SYNTHETIC fretboards (something not even Fender has done to Guild -- yet), cheap finishes and low prices. Some of these under $1000 Martins, which include rosewood models, make GADs look and sound like works of art.

Honestly, I haven't handled a GAD - but I own a Martin D15S - and although the cost is kept down by having a satin finish, etc., I'd hardly call it diluting the brand. The quality of construction & sound are there - I call it the Shaker look - simple. I wouldn't hestitate to perform or record with this instrument.

 

[dreadnut]

what was the question?

 

[West R Lee]

I think we're still talking about why Fender is such a villan. :wink:

West

 

[drowlins]

The nail was hit on the head! I would love for Guild to come out with an American made line of $800-$1200 guitars.
In Topeka the Fender dealer is Steam music. I had an adjustment made on my Westerly D-35 and asked if he had any D-55s, or CV-1 or CO-1s. He told me there was a very small market for the high end Guilds. He could special order them, but he only carried Fender acoustics (GAG), and the GAD line.
I just don't want to see Guild turned into a has been name.
By the way- Kerry Livgren (of the band Kansas) was in the shop when I came by, and came over to ogle my D-35. Both he and the shop owner were impressed that it was a Westerly sunburst. Kerry lives in Topeka, and has dealt with Steam Music for years. He currently tours with the band Proto Kaw.
Steam Music is also sponsering Phil Keagey at Grace Cathedral on Nov.3rd.

 

[Bing k]

The nail was hit on the head! I would love for Guild to come out with an American made line of $800-$1200 guitars.

Guild just barely dips into that market with the Richie Havens model which will sell new quite often for $1100-1150 and then you will find the D-40 Bluegrass Jubilee
between $1250 and 1350, a guitar which I don't think any other line competes with well in this price range.

Fender competes in the market below that with Tacoma, an American made Guitar line that has models that map in the $750-800 range but is just not well known and there is not a lot of dealers, which may change if the "buy American ideal" becomes popular with the under 40 demographic.

Does it make sense for Fender to duplicate the price range?

Let me me edit that to: Does it make "cents" for Fender to duplicate the price range in Guild?