Starfire mysterious rattle help please.

[lungimsam]

Hi y'all!
I'm getting a mysterious rattle that I cannot seem to get rid of.
Wondering if anyone has any advice.
It is playable and not noticeable to the wife's ears but I can hear it and feel it.
This is the situation:
Mostly A and D strings at various frets from 4th-12th frets. Not the G string. E string only above 6th fret.
This started after these changes:
1. I have a lighter string set on. So much so that I had to back off the truss rod to get more relief, which is about a credit card between the 9th fret and bottom of E string when the string is held down at the first and last fret. So I know the neck is straight but with a little relief. I have never needed more relief than this with string sets that were higher gauge. The strings were on a month before it started. String integrity looks fine.
2. I intonated the strings, moving the saddles back a bit (lengthening the strings a bit, except for the g string saddle).
3. Action is same as always. 6/64 at 17th fret no press on the E string and 5/64 on G string. It even still rattles if I go 8/64 on the E string side.
4. My nut slots have always been a touch low but the strings don't rattle when played open. And the slots have been low for along time before this started. So not sure this has anything to do with it.
5. The bionics have plenty of clearance so the strings are not rattling against the pickups.

Note:
I have checked with a rocker for a high fret but there seems to be none. I have had the bass for 8 years now and never noticed one. Rocker confirms it.
When I sight down the neck, the neck looks straight with a touch of relief but I can see the plane of the headstock rotates a little to the right compared to the plane of the body. Like the neck is twisted a touch. Not sure if this is normal since most tension is on the E string side of the neck on basses anyway.

Maybe just with this really light set (Ernie Ball Cobalt Flats 40-95 I just need even more relief. But I never had to use so much before. In fact, I had the set on for at least a month before the rattle started.

Any ideas? Yes, I could reverse the changes I made but I see no reason why this string set cannot be used and intonated properly without rattle since I am in normal saddle travel limits. I guess I could try a higher gauge set but my left hand loves this light gauge.

 

[fronobulax]

No clue.

When I have had to track down rattles they always appeared "out of the blue". Specifically I had not changed strings, adjusted the intonation, futzed with the truss rod, etc. so there was nothing to consider reversing. Once I did track an unexpected sound to a change in my technique but usually it isn't something I did deliberately.

I have tracked down loose screw rattles, and the like, by having a helper. I play and make the noise, the helper tries to localize it and then validates their guess by touching something and seeing if that damps the noise or not.

I lose things so when I take my strap off I often put locking portion of the strap lock back on the strap pin. One noise was just that piece rattling but only when I played certain notes.

It's a long shot but you might want to inspect through the f holes in case something inside shifted slightly when you changed strings.

Otherwise my best advice is a helper and pay attentions to metal parts that are screwed of friction fitted.

 

[RVBASS]

Maybe check the tuning heads. I had to tighten the screws once on my Starfire to stop a rattle I at first thought was coming from the bridge area, but it was the large screw on the tuner that was loose. Same thing happened this week with a new bass I received, but this time it was the washer under the nut on the front of one of the tuner posts.

 

[mavuser]

check the screws in the 4 corners of the pickup surround

 

[mellowgerman]

If your nut slots are a bit low, the strings can also be rattling/buzzing between the fretted note and the nut.

 

[lungimsam]

Thanks! I will try this stuff out. I will also shim the nut and see if that helps.

 

[teleharmonium]

If it is still mysterious, you can get a piece of aquarium style flexible tubing small enough to push next to your ear hole, and have someone play while you probe the other end over the bass. It usuallly works fine. Might still be mysterious if it is the truss rod, but, it probably is not that.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

A friend has a De Armond SF Bass that was a strange resonance that we've been unable to track down. It's an unpleasant, metallic quality most notable in the G string at the 12th fret (though the E string at the 12th does it to a lesser degree) most audible unplugged, minimal when plugged in. Not exactly a "wolf" tone, because it doesn't warble. Strings are D'Addario ECB-81M Chromes. We've tried foam string mutes between nut and string posts and between bridge barrels and bridge string anchor holes to no effect. Fretwraps positioned on either side of the nut don't help.

With those barrel bridge saddles (with a height adjustment screw at each end of the barrel and the string groove offset) it's possible for the adjustment screw on the "long" end of the barrel to have minimal or even no contact with the bridge base plate while that end of the barrel doesn't drop because it is held in place by contact with the end adjacent barrel. This could potentially lead to the adjustment screw buzzing on the bass plate: that has been checked and eliminated as a possible source of the problem. Fret buzz/high frets have also been checked for and eliminated. Damping the pups and/or their mounting hardware has no effect. Also tried stuffing pieces of index card between the bridge barrels ends in case they were buzzing against one another: nope. There are no body cracks.

I'm mystified. I have two Guild NS SF Basses (one with wooden saddles, one with brass saddles) and a Westerly with metal barrel saddles) all strung with D'Addario ECB-81M Chromes and have never experienced anything remotely like this on those basses.

 

[teleharmonium]

A friend has a De Armond SF Bass that was a strange resonance that we've been unable to track down. It's an unpleasant, metallic quality most notable in the G string at the 12th fret (though the E string at the 12th does it to a lesser degree) most audible unplugged, minimal when plugged in. Not exactly a "wolf" tone, because it doesn't warble. Strings are D'Addario ECB-81M Chromes. We've tried foam string mutes between nut and string posts and between bridge barrels and bridge string anchor holes to no effect. Fretwraps positioned on either side of the nut don't help.

With those barrel bridge saddles (with a height adjustment screw at each end of the barrel and the string groove offset) it's possible for the adjustment screw on the "long" end of the barrel to have minimal or even no contact with the bridge base plate while that end of the barrel doesn't drop because it is held in place by contact with the end adjacent barrel. This could potentially lead to the adjustment screw buzzing on the bass plate: that has been checked and eliminated as a possible source of the problem. Fret buzz/high frets have also been checked for and eliminated. Damping the pups and/or their mounting hardware has no effect. There are no body cracks.

I'm mystified. I have two Guild NS SF Basses (one with wooden saddles, one with brass saddles) and a Westerly with metal barrel saddles) all strung with D'Addario ECB-81M Chromes and have never experienced anything remotely like this on those basses.

You might try a small truss rod turn

 

[Minnesota Flats]

"You might try a small truss rod turn"

I assume you're suggesting increased neck relief?

 

[teleharmonium]

"You might try a small truss rod turn"

I assume you're suggesting increased neck relief?

Not necessarily, I just mean slightly turning it to move the tension a little bit (in either direction) with no appreciable change in relief. I had a Gretsch Corvette that needed that a couple of times if I used heavier gauge strings. I don't know if it will work for you, but it's a simple test.

 

[lungimsam]

UPDATE:
Tightened up hardware.
Still can hear fret rattle.
I will try shimming the nut tomorrow.
By the way, the light guage of the strings necessetated turning the truss rod counter clockwise PAST neutral ( for a total of about 3/4 turn from where it was) to get the relief I needed, if that has anything to do with it. I have never had to back off a truss rod so much.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

Not necessarily, I just mean slightly turning it to move the tension a little bit (in either direction) with no appreciable change in relief. I had a Gretsch Corvette that needed that a couple of times if I used heavier gauge strings. I don't know if it will work for you, but it's a simple test.

Not trying to be snarky: just am not sure what the logic behind the suggestion would be. Only time I ever mess with the truss rod is:

•(On a newly-acquired bass) to make sure it isn't frozen

•To either increase relief or flatten the fretboard (depending on how much and in which direction it gets turned) as needed

 

[mavuser]

Not trying to be snarky: just am not sure what the logic behind the suggestion would be. Only time I ever mess with the truss rod is:

•(On a newly-acquired bass) to make sure it isn't frozen

•To either increase relief or flatten the fretboard (depending on how much and in which direction it gets turned) as needed

I understand what he means, it's just micro asjustments. real minor tweaks. technically it's still considered adjusting the relief. I don't think that is the problem here however

 

[teleharmonium]

Not trying to be snarky: just am not sure what the logic behind the suggestion would be. Only time I ever mess with the truss rod is:

•(On a newly-acquired bass) to make sure it isn't frozen

•To either increase relief or flatten the fretboard (depending on how much and in which direction it gets turned) as needed

I'm no professional at this stuff, but my logic is simply that if the rod itself is ringing, sometimes a slight adjustment makes it stop. I assume the slight turn causes more contact between the most curved part of the rod and the wood in the channel, inhibiting vibration, or reduces that contact.

This is based on a sample size of one guitar, but it's also the only guitar I've ever had with a ringing truss rod, which it has only with heavier strings.

 

[lungimsam]

I have heard of this too.
Tweaking the rod didn't change things, but I know it can help sometimes.

I still need to shim the nut to rule that out. It is definitely too low on the A and D strings, which are buzzing the most. E and G are really low but have just a little clearance over the first fret when third fret pressed. A and D do not.
It was always fine with higher guage strings but I think these light guages are revealing the nut issue.
No problem if that is all it is. I'll just get another one from Guild and that should solve it.

 

[Guildedagain]

Contrary to common sense thinking that big strings need more room for excursion based on their size, it's quite possible that lighter string have more actual excursion because they have less tension than heavier strings at the same pitch. Bigger strings are stiffer at the same pitch = less travel.

Smaller strings sit lower in the nut. You can instantly eliminate the nut as a culprit with a capo.

Ringing truss rods are wishful thinking in my mind, unless it's actually loose, then maybe.

Something I've fixed on two basses in the last year, a loose tuner "button". These are pinned, or swedged, on a variety of old tuners. A certain freq can make a slightly loose tuner button rattle, enough to drive you nuts until you figure out what it is.

The solution, Bob's superthin Super Glue, BE CAREFUL, wear glasses, the stuff can shoot across the room, don't ask me how I know.

 

[lungimsam]

New nut didn’t change anything.
Cannot find any hardware rattling.

 

[lungimsam]

So looking at the frets veeery carefully, looks like four or five of them between the 14th and 5th frets are coming up in the middle, which could account for why only the a and d strings buzz. Their ends are still in place. Just the center has a small gap and the rest of the frets don't have any gap. I will try to tap them back in and see if that fixes it. Hopefully that is all it will need.
I was taking fret rocker readings near the g string and not in the middle of the frets, which may be why I could not detect any high frets before.
Anyone got any fret hammering advice let me know. I have been looking online and it looks pretty easy.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

•I thought frets usually get pressed in with a caul rather than hammered. Seems like even pressure would be less likely to cause damage than sharp hammer blows. I'd certainly make sure the neck is solidly supported directly beneath the fret being worked on if you do use a hammer. Even when using a hammer I'd think a caul would be advisable since it will spread the force of the blow across the entire width of the fret and avoid any deforming which could result from the hammer contacting the fret directly. I think Stew Mac sells fret cauls.


•Here's another comment which relates only to Guild basses with the later, modified "harp" bridge (the one with the individually-adjustable-for-height, metal "barrel" bridge saddles) e.g.: DeArmond Starfire and Guild Westerly Starfire reissues from the 1990s, not the earlier, wooden-saddled MIA Guilds or the MIK, Newark Street reissues with wooden saddles.



Note that the groove/notch for the string is off-center on each barrel. There's a weird thing that can happen with these because of this: the barrel can hit a balance point where the tip of the adjusting screw closest to the string groove is in firm contact with the bridge base plate but the tip of the other adjusting screw is hovering the thickness of an index card or less above the base plate. This is difficult to spot, but can cause a buzz or impart an unpleasant, "metallic" tone component as it resonates with certain notes. In my experience, the best way to avoid this when tweaking the height of the barrels is to adjust the height of the string with the screw closest to the string notch and then slowly bring down the other adjusting screw til you're sure its tip is in full contact with the base plate. This may wind up with the barrel being slightly "cocked" or tilted (with the end of the barrel closest to the string lower than the other end). While this may "look wrong" (since ones instinct is to have the overall arc of the saddles match the arc of fretboard radius) it's really the arc described by the string grooves, themselves, not the barrel ends that matters (and of course the avoidance of the resonant buzz or metallic tone).

And, of course, those black springs (see PIC above) can also rattle of if the barrels are adjusted (for intonation) so far forward that the spring's ability to expand is exceeded.

Hope any of that made any sense at all to anybody.