Re-bracing an existing guitar to improve its sound

[bobouz]

Well I guess I must have been incredibly lucky to buy the guitar I did.
Forty-seven years old, no cracks, still has all the binding intact, the bridge is glued in the right place, never needed a neck re-set, and sounds beautiful. What are the chances?

Some of the ‘70s Martins are super nice instruments.
No doubt about it, you got a very good one!

 

[RBSinTo]

Rambozo96,
By way of full disclosure, the pickguard curled about five years ago, and had to be removed and replaced. It was then that the Luthier commented that I was fortunate that there were no cracks in the sound board because of the shrinkage of the guard. When I said the guitar had never been humidified in all the time I had owned it, (since 1979) he was astonished and described me as one lucky fellow.
RBSinTo

 

[RBSinTo]

............."Fast forward to now, I picked up a couple 70's vintage Japan dreadnoughts, D28 and D35 copies,"..................

Guildedagain,
Thanks for the interesting post. I am intrigued by these Yamaki and Sango guitars and would appreciate if you could supply the model designations for the two particular guitars you have.
Please and thanks,
Robert

 

[Br1ck]

First regarding binding. From 2012 to 2016 or thereabouts, Martin changed their binding glue to something they felt was better. Over time, they realized their mistake. My 00 15 was reglued under warranty.

Secondly, almost anything you do to a guitar changes it. It may change one thing for the better, but change something else for the worse, and it's also subjective. Trends come and go. Right now Martin is doubling down on resonance. I remember the first reimagined D18 I played. I didn't like it. They made it much less dry and punchy. Made it warm and beautiful. The vast majority liked it. I played a friend's D 18 Authentic. Even more warm and beautiful. Give me a good mid 60s D 18 any day. The things they changed were not in addition to, but instead of. Could I live with a modern D 18 Authentic? Sure I could, it's a great guitar.

A friend keeps buying humbuckers that are supposed to sound like single coils. They sound like thin humbuckers. Give one place, take in another. So in theory you could do anything you want to a guitar, and it could get closer to what you want to hear, but I think it better to buy the tone you want, because you could hate the change.

 

[mike1100]

Bryan Kimsey (see link in my first post) is well known (on UMGF) for making adjustments to Martin bracing thru the soundhole... contact him and see what he says. I don't think moving the X-braces or tone bars is in the cards, but he often removes the "popsicle brace" and/or scallops bracing. Never had any dealing with him personally, but I gather he will give you an honest, straightforward opinion on what is possible and what the results might be...

I have dealt with Bryan previously and he is a top notch gent. You would have to verify, but he may not be taking on work just yet, as he sold his family ranch and was getting settled. If you're interested, I'd suggest searching for his site and emailing him directly.

In the meantime he does have quite a few YouTube videos if you want to get a sense about him and his work.

 

[dreadnut]

You know how hard it is to quantify guitar sound, but I'm guessing it is possible that the bracing isn't the main reason for the stellar tone.

 

[Guildedagain]

The Sango is a WD-50 Matsomoku made, sounds gorgeous, but not as much deep bass or clear treble as the "Enchanting Harmony by Yamaki" which is a D-132, somewhat up there on the MIJ dread food chain. Morris are some of the dreads to look for. Some of these got pretty fancy, nice woods, even nicer tone. There is a Japanese video where a Morris walks all over my D-132.

 

[Br1ck]

I own and love a 65 Epiphone Texan. It has the dreaded adjustable bridge. Over time, I've played a few J 45 and J 50 guitars. Some have had the adjustable bridge removed, the slot filled and routed for a solid bone saddle. Know how many of them are fine guitars? Zero. Know how many adj. bridge J 45s were fine guitars? Few. I have come to the conclusion that the adj bridge has been blamed for all the bad Gibson guitars, when in reality, Gibson made a lot of bad guitars. I've played Texans within a year or two of mine that were lifeless.

Now I in no way endorse the notion that if you played my guitar, you'd like it. The ceramic saddle has a unique sound. If your idea of guitar Nirvanna is a D 55, a totally supportable notion, you might hate it, or in actuality, want both. As far as scalloping goes, Brian Kimsey is rather conservative. He would rather not go too far. It takes a while for the effects to set in, so he'd rather you play it for six months and come back for more if it wasn't quite the result you wanted. I've played enough 60-70s Martins to know I'd probably hunt for one I liked rather than mod one I don't. But I do love a good straight braced guitar. It's a tone that works for me. I trusted Brian when he told me about my D 35 that he had for sale. It is unlike any other I've ever played, and they are generally my least favorite Martin dread. It has a rosewood bridge and fingerboard which may be the reason. D 35 lovers might hate my guitar, but I've had more than one if you ever want to sell it conversations, and a standing offer from Mr. Kimsey himself. Such is the nature of wood.

 

[donnylang]

I had a '69 D35 that was totally re-braced w/ scalloped bracing, forward shifted. I have no idea what it sounded like before - and it did sound great - but my stock '68 D35 sounds a lot better to me. I will also say the '69 was a heavier guitar, even with the lighter bracing.

I can't imagine modifying a vintage guitar unless it's a basket case (like I believe that '69 D35 was originally), and a luthier is doing it for fun or experimentation. The only other reason I can think to do this to a higher-end vintage guitar is if you love the guitar but don't like the way it sounds (however that might be possible).

My personal laymen opinion as a player is a guitar is more than the sum of its parts ... you can't just change one thing and know how it will come out. Could bring out a wonky resonance that you did not expect, etc. I tend to trust that Martin, Guild, etc were selecting the various wood to build the guitar with certain things in mind, and they were voiced in certain tried and true ways. Not to say someone could not change them or improve them to suit their own preferences ... but it's a gamble. I also personally reject that a more resonant guitar is always better. Similar to what Br1ck noted above ... in some ways, resonance can be the opposite of "punchy". I like a punchy, direct sounding guitar.

My interest in vintage guitars is ... vintage guitars. Modifying bracing completely changes what the guitar was, which makes it a vintage/modern hybrid.

But can it be done? Sure. Doesn't make sense in most scenarios IMO though.

 

[wileypickett]

I own and love a 65 Epiphone Texan. It has the dreaded adjustable bridge. Over time, I've played a few J 45 and J 50 guitars. Some have had the adjustable bridge removed, the slot filled and routed for a solid bone saddle. Know how many of them are fine guitars? Zero. Know how many adj. bridge J 45s were fine guitars? Few. I have come to the conclusion that the adj bridge has been blamed for all the bad Gibson guitars, when in reality, Gibson made a lot of bad guitars. I've played Texans within a year or two of mine that were lifeless.

I was pretty familiar with Gibson acoustics, mainly via friend's guitars. (The best sounding one I ever played was an early '50s J-50 that belonged to country blues guitarist John Jackson from Fairfax, VA.)

The first Gibson I owned was a '60s model (don't remember which, but it had the adjustable saddle), which I came across in a little shop in Louisiana in the early 2000s. It had seen a lot of play but had no major problems, and as the price seemed reasonable, I bought It. It quickly became my "A" guitar.

My luthier friend Fred (Federico) Sheppard, while visiting from Minneapolis, tried out the guitar, liked it, and said if I ever wanted to have the adjustable saddle slot filled and a regular saddle put in -- something he'd done a number of times during his years of repair work -- to send it to him. (Fred also speaks highly of '60s Epiphone Texans, BTW.)

As my Gibson already sounded good and I didn't want to be without it for the time it would take Fred to do the work, I dragged my feet for about a year. But as the guitar had a few issues that needed attending to I finally packed it up and shipped it to him.

Sometimes you don't remember how a guitar sounded before you had it worked on. But the fact that I'd spent so much time with that Gibson before sending it to Fred meant that I could tell the difference, which was night and day.

It was a very good sounding guitar before Fred replaced the adjustable saddle (which he referred to as "a rattle-trap") and a great sounding guitar after.

At least to my ears.

 

[fronobulax]

The best sounding one I ever played was an early '50s J-50 that belonged to country blues guitarist John Jackson from Fairfax, VA

I was vaguely aware of John Jackson when I lived in Fairfax but he has loomed larger now that I drive through Woodville (his birthplace) about once a month and have heard local musicians who play songs they learned from or played with him.

 

[wileypickett]

I visited John Jackson and his wife Cora a number of time in their home in Fairfax back in the early '70s, when I was going to college in Richmond, an hour or so away. He'd play music all night, which I sometimes taped to cassette.

In the late '70s I co-produced two records by John, selecting songs from those tapes and not duplicating anything John had recorded previously. (John later made records for Alligator and Folkways.)

He was a lovely, lovely man, and one of my favorite memories is of our going digging for Civil War relics together, him with his metal detector and "lucky hat," and me trying to keep up.

One of the pieces on my next album is dedicated to John.

 

[bobouz]

I own and love a 65 Epiphone Texan. It has the dreaded adjustable bridge. Over time, I've played a few J 45 and J 50 guitars. Some have had the adjustable bridge removed, the slot filled and routed for a solid bone saddle. Know how many of them are fine guitars? Zero. Know how many adj. bridge J 45s were fine guitars? Few. I have come to the conclusion that the adj bridge has been blamed for all the bad Gibson guitars, when in reality, Gibson made a lot of bad guitars. I've played Texans within a year or two of mine that were lifeless. Now I in no way endorse the notion that if you played my guitar, you'd like it. The ceramic saddle has a unique sound.

I’m one of those who’s hooked on the slightly metallic overtones produced by Gibson’s adjustable bridge from the ‘60s, including the ones incorporating adjustable plastic bridges. Not to say that it’s the only guitar tone I enjoy, but it’s certainly one of them.

Even as virtually every luither out there will bash the heck out of these adjustable bridges, when it’s removed, the instrument’s tone will change either for better or worse - dependent on the perspective of what your ears want to hear.

 

[wileypickett]

I’m one of those who’s hooked on the slightly metallic overtones produced by Gibson’s adjustable bridge from the ‘60s, including the ones incorporating adjustable plastic bridges. Not to say that it’s the only guitar tone I enjoy, but it’s certainly one of them.

Even as virtually every luither out there will bash the heck out of these adjustable bridges, when it’s removed, the instrument’s tone will change either for better or worse - dependent on the perspective of what your ears want to hear.

Hey, I think I get where you’re coming from. I have a soft spot for the odd and offbeat too, and like you, I’ve never felt the need to apologize for it.

If you love that adjustable metallic saddle sound, you might check out some of what Framus was issuing in the ‘60s and ‘70s. Their adjustable saddles were some of most wretched sounding things I’ve ever come across — might be right up your alley!

I’ve owned at least 10 Framuses (Framii?) over the years, including my first and second 12-strings, and still have one six-string model (the same acoustic Keith Richard used on the early Stones albums) and three of their longneck banjos.

I have an all bamboo guitar (front, back, sides and neck) made by Yamaha that got panned by everyone — some of the online reviews are hilarious. Production was very short-lived. It doesn’t sound good, but it doesn’t sound like anything else either, and I like it for that reason.

The archtop Givson guitar (yes, Givson, made in India) I got at a yard sale in Rhode Island for 10 bucks a decade ago looks like it was carved with a dull pocket-knife.

It was all but unplayable when I got it, so I raised the nut and play it with a slide and quite like its crude, inelegant sound.

I’ve also got a Kay K-22 jumbo and a couple Harmonys that appeal to me.

And let’s not even get into the various and bizarre off-brand (way off-brand) electrics I owned back when I played electric guitar.

The “problem” with that Gibson was it sounded too good as it was (it wasn’t bad enough or weird enough to be anything other than a great sounding acoustic) and it definitely sounded better with a conventional saddle, even by its own standards.

Again, to my ear.

 

[bobouz]

Hey, I think I get where you’re coming from. I have a soft spot for the odd and offbeat too, and like you, I’ve never felt the need to apologize for it. If you love that adjustable metallic saddle sound, you might check out some of what Framus was issuing in the ‘60s and ‘70s. Their adjustable saddles were some of most wretched sounding things I’ve ever come across — might be right up your alley!
I’ve owned at least 10 Framuses (Framii?) over the years, including my first and second 12-strings, and still have one six-string model (the same acoustic Keith Richard used on the early Stones albums) and three of their longneck banjos. I’ve also got a Kay K-22 jumbo and a couple Harmonys that appeal to me.

Wiley, thanks for all the tips - and although I've owned some neat Harmony, Wards, & Kay acoustic archtops going back to the '30s, I guess nowadays I'm just a one off-beat guitar kinda guy!

 

[merlin6666]

So many threads on certain forums about ways to "improve" sounds and I always get hung up on the notion of improvement. For me that always implies something that applies to things that are not good enough. As for guitars specifically, for one they don't have a sound, the player makes the sound and the main improvement that can be made is in the way the guitar is played. Then if the sound is better or worse is subjective and depends entirely on the individual, one person's clunker can be another one's holy grail. And finally, for all modifications made on a guitar in good working condition there is an equal chance that it will appear to sound better or worse than before. Though psychology suggests that those who invest in "improvements" also will perceive the outcome as such.

 

[wileypickett]

I'm also a banjo player and visit a banjo chatgroup regularly.

If you think guitarists are inveterate tinkerers, you ain't seen nothing till you spend time around banjo players. Because anyone can take a banjo apart down to its tiniest parts and replace or mod the heck out of the various components, the tinkering never stops.

 

[bobouz]

I'm also a banjo player and visit a banjo chatgroup regularly.
If you think guitarists are inveterate tinkerers, you ain't seen nothing till you spend time around banjo players. Because anyone can take a banjo apart down to its tiniest parts and replace or mod the heck out of the various components, the tinkering never stops.

Okay, you just triggered my PTBD from the ‘70s. I started playing the banjo back then because it’s how I’ve always played the guitar - three finger Scruggs style (with ring finger planted instead of the pinky). After owning & constantly tinkering with a number of banjos, I had to step away from the instrument for the proper care & feeding of my mental health!

 

[Br1ck]

I bought a very cheapo 50s all solid birch archtop, probably a rebranded Stella, to practice my lutherie skills on. Painted on flame, painted on binding, and a huge neck with no trussrod. Branded Acoustasonic, it was a fine department store brand. I took the back off, shaved the logs they called braces, added a JJB pickup while it was easy, and slipped the neckblock to regain proper neck angle. Then I refretted it, and bound it with plain white binding. It remains a cheezy sounding guitar, but one that takes me to a farmhouse porch in the depression. It does things a "good" guitar can't.

What is considered good is really just what is in fashion, or what we've been sold. That OM that has a huge dynamic range, lush with overtones, might be a nightmare in a bluegrass jam. I sold a Martin M 36 after over twenty years because I needed more headroom with less overtones. The guitar didn't change. There are many well regarded brands I don't care for, and guitars that if I used the modern standard, sound too good. The Martin Authentics are in this category for me. But they are fine guitars. Give me a good 65. Change is just that, change.

 

[plaidseason]

There are more than a few luthiers who shave/scallop braces using finger planes, without taking apart.