Re-bracing an existing guitar to improve its sound

[RBSinTo]

Recently, I have been reading about the extraordinary sound produced by the Martin Authentic 1937 D-28 guitars, partly because of the scalloped, and forward positioned bracing that the originals used, which has been copied in the new versions.
And it occurred to me to ask would it be possible to change the bracing shape and position in my 1974 Martin D-28 and gain a more quality sound?
I have no idea whether this is possible, or what it would cost, and have not been able to find any information on this question. My Luthiering experience is limited, so I thought that perhaps members here who have more knowledge or experience could answer or offer opinions, moreso on the feasibility than anything else.
Please and thanks,
RBSinTo

 

[jedzep]

I think you'll need to ask over on the UMGF, as removal of the D28 back and subsequent mods are in the realm of those generous luthiers on the site that really know what's what and what it costs. There are 're-bracers' lurking over there, but don't be surprised if it's discouraged. Maybe shaving down the braces would give you tone change you'd like.

 

[GardMan]

I don't know what is possible... Bryan Kimsey on UMGF would be the one to ask: https://umgf.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=887002

 

[SFIV1967]

I'd think you would have to remove the neck, remove the top binding, remove the top and now you can do what you like with the bracing. Changing the bracing via taking of the back will be a pain I'd think. But that is a lot of work and take the drying time for the lacquer in to calculation, so even if the wood work is just a couple of days the lacquer touch up will take a few weeks. The total cost will be pretty high I'd guess.

Ralf

 

[HeyMikey]

Better to sell it and find one you like the sound of better IMHO. Any change you do may or may not improve the sound, will cost money out of pocket and possibly hurt your resale value.

 

[RBSinTo]

Once again, I haven't expressed myself very well.
I'm not dissatisfied with the sound of my D-28, but simply wondered in general if the different shaped and positioned braces in what seemingly was an extraordinary sounding genre (the dreadnought Martin was making in the late 1930's) could be reproduced in later models by swapping out the bracing.
Even with my limited Luthiering knowledge, I know it would be expensive, require extensive work and time to do.
I'm happy with the sound mine produces, but wondered if it could be made even better.
I've searched the internet and can't find any reference to anyone ever actually doing this, so am just inquiring as a sort of "Gedanken" or thought experiment.
RBSinTo

 

[Brad Little]

Someone, (Tony Rice, maybe?) used to take a jackknife and scallop the braces no his guitars.

 

[chazmo]

Repositioning braces is a big job, RBSinTo. Scalloping or shaving existing braces, not a big job. Have fun.

The Authentic D-28s have always appealed to me. If I'd had the coin back in 2013 when they were released, I'd've bought one. I think they were a great investment.

 

[GardMan]

Bryan Kimsey (see link in my first post) is well known (on UMGF) for making adjustments to Martin bracing thru the soundhole... contact him and see what he says. I don't think moving the X-braces or tone bars is in the cards, but he often removes the "popsicle brace" and/or scallops bracing. Never had any dealing with him personally, but I gather he will give you an honest, straightforward opinion on what is possible and what the results might be...

 

[wileypickett]

To your main question, I have no idea if this would work or not, what would be involved, or what kind of results can be expected.

I do know that people who have had their guitars rebraced usually have the backs taken off, not the tops. It's easier and will give your luthier all the access s/he would need to get at the top braces.

Something to consider: Aside from any treatment given to the braces themselves (scalloping, etc.), they work as part of the overall structural integrity of the top; among other things the position of the braces works in conjunction with the location of the bridge and bridge plate, and they help reinforce the area around the soundhole, the weakest part of the top.

It's possible that shifting the bracing might necessitate the bridge / bridge plate being repositioned too (or replaced) which is certainly possible, but I'm not sure how you'll reposition the soundhole!

I'd try to find a forward-braced Martin to see how you like it. Maybe whatever improvement in sound might result is not great enough to make the risk and expense worthwhile?

If you think it might be worth trying, however, I'd contact an expert, as others have advised.

Keep us posted if you go forward with your plan!

 

[Guildedagain]

Had this pretty nice 72 D28, never really floated my boat for some reason but it was nice having a Martin at least once, although it was too pricey to have around wild kids, or wild adults, so that made me nervous about playing it.

This is it taking a break on the couch with a 30's MOP fingerboard slide guitar and uber rare "Harvest Gold" Les Paul Custom. How rare? They never actually even made it.

My solution to the bracing issue was to sell it and buy a vintage D35 and F30 for the same money.

Fast forward to now, I picked up a couple 70's vintage Japan dreadnoughts, D28 and D35 copies, and after careful consideration as well as play by a visiting pro singer/songwriter extraordinaire who chose the Yamaki over any other guitar - all with new strings - for a local gig, I've decided that these two copies are sonically superior to any of my Guild guitars, which will free up some room as well as some cash. I'm also suddenly in love with lam construction and poly finishes, on sweaty 100º days , almost the every day norm now with way higher humidity than normal, 40% as I write this, I just can't handle playing Nitro guitars anymore. More time spent dealing with the fussy finish than playing.

Touch finishes and bulletproof construction aside - early CNC - I've tried to be objective about this for a year now, but it is clear, on many recordings, the Yamaki booms and rings like nothing else, and the Sango Guild copy makes my wife say things like "that was pretty" which is almost like hearing "you just won the lottery" ;]

So at the end of and all, I'm still in love with a D28, headstock reads a little differently but who's looking ;]

 

[Br1ck]

Anything is possible, but why would you? Cost would be prohibitive, and value would be lost. Bryan Kimsey has been doing modifications for decades now. Check out his YouTube channel for extensive info. He specialized in 60s and 70s Martins. He is also mindful of preserving guitars that are original and in good condition. He will scallop braces, but I don't think he will take apart a guitar and rebrace it.

Be mindful that alterations change a guitar. You might or might not like the change. He can and has breathed new life into a so so sounding instrument. You can pretty much do everything he does to a 70s Martin for $1200. Check out his website too. The D 35 I bought from him just got one backbrace shaved down. He will not scallop a D 35 top.

 

[Nuuska]

Hello

Quite interesting question.

Things to concider:

Are you searching for the sound of 100 years ago then new guitar? - or how it sounds now?

Former has the aging of the wood and myriad of oteher age-related things.

Later has the limitation of the recording technology of the time.

How can anybody know how any instrument sounded 100 years ago?


Methinks that if you have some sound in your head that you're trying to capture - the two things to concentrate on are - playing technique differencies - variety of available instruments.


This modest writing is partly based on the fact, that after searching Leo Kottke sound I eventually met him and got to play his guitar - did not sound anything close at all . . .

 

[RBSinTo]

Oy, gentlemen.
Please listen to what I am saying.
I've never played or heard a 37 Authentic, and my Martin sounds very nice. The question was merely academic. If the original sounds so wonderful because of brace shape and position, would changing braces and their position make an already beautifully sounding guitar sound even better? And is it even possible to do?
I don't want or plan to do it. I just wondered if it is possible, or does anyone know if it has been successfully done?
RBSinTo

 

[bobouz]

I don't want or plan to do it. I just wondered if it is possible, or does anyone know if it has been successfully done?

It is certainly possible. Google “Baxendale Guitars” for multiple links. Scott Baxendale started out in the ‘70s with Mossman & Gruhn Guitars. He specializes in doing bracing conversations to wriggle tone out of vintage pieces.

Most recently, he has built a cottage industry out of converting old flat-top Harmony & Kay acoustics from ladder to X-bracing. I’ve played a couple of them. They sound good & the build quality is first rate. Back in the ‘70s, I used to buy those old beaters for $10-$20 at flea markets to fix up (along with lots of archtops) & then trade them in towards better guitars. That’s how I managed to buy four new Guilds by the turn of the ‘80s. So playing Baxendale’s conversions was fun, but I still can’t get used to those clubby necks!

At any rate, read up on him & see if the online links answer your questions. If not, a phone call would probably do the trick.

 

[bobouz]

The Authentic D-28s have always appealed to me. If I'd had the coin back in 2013 when they were released, I'd've bought one. I think they were a great investment.

Actually Chaz, you may have dodged a bullet. Many Martins from that era, including Authentics, have had their bindings pop off at the waist - and/or needed neck resets within a few years of ownership. Pop over to UMGF’s “Technical Info” section right now to read another damning “binding issues” thread. Yes, I do bring this up frequently when Martin’s quality is touted over other brands, as it has now just become another internet myth. Personally, I would stay away from 2012 or newer Martins.

 

[Rambozo96]

I hear it’s heavily discouraged on a already built guitar. Something about compromising the structural integrity and I would imagine it would cost so much that it’s more viable to sell the guitar that doesn’t float your boat and buy something better suited for you. When trying to heavily mod a guitar and sinking that much cash there’s the horrible running chance that it still doesn’t float your boat. Then what? All the money spent for nothing.

 

[Rambozo96]

Actually Chaz, you may have dodged a bullet. Many Martins from that era, including Authentics, have had their bindings pop off at the waist - and/or needed neck resets within a few years of ownership. Pop over to UMGF’s “Technical Info” section right now to read another damning “binding issues” thread. Yes, I do bring this up frequently when Martin’s quality is touted over other brands, as it has now just become another internet myth. Personally, I would stay away from 2012 or newer Martins.

Also a few 70’s example Martin’s having bridges glued in the wrong spot. I mean a lot of manufacturers have been guilty of this of course.

 

[RBSinTo]

Well I guess I must have been incredibly lucky to buy the guitar I did.
Forty-seven years old, no cracks, still has all the binding intact, the bridge is glued in the right place, never needed a neck re-set, and sounds beautiful. What are the chances?
RBSinTo

 

[Rambozo96]

Well I guess I must have been incredibly lucky to buy the guitar I did.
Forty-seven years old, no cracks, still has all the binding intact, the bridge is glued in the right place, never needed a neck re-set, and sounds beautiful. What are the chances?
RBSinTo

Lot can happen in 50 years so it being crack free is a major plus.