Pickup vs. body

[fronobulax]

The folks who are not so bored with me that they don't read my posts know that I wonder how much of a the vintage Guild sound comes from the instrument and how much from the pickup. Thus I ask questions like whether a 70's JS with humbuckers would sound like the later, solid body M-85. How does a pre-70 Starfire with the bi-sonic compare to a later one with humbuckers? How do a JS and a Starfire with the same pickups differ in sound?

crimson_dynamo is selling his bass on eBay. He notes in the ad that the bass can be heard in this video. What makes it relavent to my questions is that the bass is a '67 Starfire I with the bi-sonic replaced by a humbucker. I happen to know what a '67 Starfire with bisonic sounds like and a JS with humbuckers sounds like so the sale bass "splits the difference".

So as I listen to the clip the bass sound like neither my Starfire or JS. Compared to mine it sounds muted - missing the edge and the woody tone that I hear with mine - but more like my Starfire than my JS.

Anybody else listen to the clip and have some words to describe how the sound differs from a bisonic Starfire?

 

[Telenator]

Wow! There is so much information in that post, it's really difficult to answer.

First of all, I find sound clips to be largely unreliable because you don't know the conditions under which they were recorded. Secondly, the player sets his instrument and amp tone to somethiong that suits him and may not necessarily be to your liking.

Where does that leave us? No where I suppose.

In the best cases of a well recorded instrument, you can hear the subtle nuances in the tone, to an extent. A random You Tube clip can be difficult to make a determination from.

Have you considered making your posts a little shorter and more to the point? All the background leading up to the question is not always necessary and often confuses the issue before one actually gets to the question.

 

[Happy Face]

Have you considered making your posts a little shorter and more to the point? All the background leading up to the question is not always necessary and often confuses the issue before one actually gets to the question.

I hope he does not. In this era of Tweets and text mesages, it's nice to read complete sentences and enjoy a bit of rambling.

But you have a good point on the difficulty of comparing sound clips. Different amps, differenent mikes or DIs etc. But most of all, different players. I have never forgotten mgod's post over on the Pit about the time Jack C played one of his basses....

 

[Telenator]

Funny thing is, I don't text, twit, tweet or whatever the heck people do these days. I was simply responding to the OP's opening remarks and trying to be helpful.

 

[fronobulax]

I well understand that anything in the audio and signal change could change or obscure what the bass or the pickup is doing. However I also know that people do listen to live recordings, comment on tone quality and other attributes of the sound and that other people find the observations useful, if not scientific. If I were motivated enough I would buy the bass in question because then I would have two '67 Starfires with different pickups that I could compare with the same ears, player, amplifier, and room acoustics. But I have other things I would rather spend $1000+ on just to satisfy my curiosity.

I listen to a lot of live Jefferson Airplane recordings from the late 60's. The bass player is Jack Casady but most of the other things that effect the sound as I hear it are variable. Nevertheless there is a quality I hear in the recordings where he is playing a Starfire that I don't hear in the ones where he is not. I may be delusional but I hear some of the same qualities when I play my Starfire, but not my JS, so I believe that there is some portion of the sound quality that is related to the instrument and the pickup and is strong enough to come through even with all of the other variables. If there is anyone else who has sensed something similar and has the words to describe it, I would find that vocabulary helpful for the next time someone asks about which vintage bass to buy or whether to replace the pickups with Dark Stars.

 

[Happy Face]

You'll get no argument from me on that, Frono. No question.

My point was the best thing would be to assemble a Starfire and a JS-II with Bisonics/Darkstars and the same models with humbuckies in a room. And then have one lucky soul play them all through the same rig. Too bad everyone lives so far apart.

 

[Happy Face]

Funny thing is, I don't text, twit, tweet or whatever the heck people do these days. I was simply responding to the OP's opening remarks and trying to be helpful.

Glad to hear you aren't a Tweetie! I just hated to see Frono criticized. He keeps this place alive and interesting.

 

[fronobulax]

Funny thing is, I don't text, twit, tweet or whatever the heck people do these days. I was simply responding to the OP's opening remarks and trying to be helpful.

Glad to hear you aren't a Tweetie! I just hated to see Frono criticized. He keeps this place alive and interesting.

Just to weigh in, I was on the defensive for awhile but then I realized that it was a valid criticism and one I hear almost every time I try and tell a story at dinner when #2 son is present. I also decided that, in true internet fashion, I was reading emotion into a post that probably was not intended.

Bottom line, no harm no foul and thanks for the support.

To veer back, I don't recall mgod's Dude Pit story about Jack Casady playing one of mgod's basses although I do recall Fred Hammon's about Jack throwing a Dark Star onto an Epiphone EB-1 to make a travel/beater bass (as in I don't care if it gets lost or stolen) and being very much surprised when it turned out to be a very nice bass deserving of respect.

 

[adorshki]

The bass player is Jack Casady but most of the other things that effect the sound as I hear it are variable. Nevertheless there is a quality I hear in the recordings where he is playing a Starfire that I don't hear in the ones where he is not. I may be delusional but I hear some of the same qualities when I play my Starfire, but not my JS, so I believe that there is some portion of the sound quality that is related to the instrument and the pickup and is strong enough to come through even with all of the other variables.

Two of my all time favorite Casady recordings are on "Baxter's", "Spare Chaynge", the psychedelic flamenco duet with Jorma, and "Won't You Try".
A while abck, Mgod posted a comment f rom Jack that he used the Fender Jazz bass for those sessions, yet I would describe the sound on "Spare Chaynge" as very woody. It's one of the things that caught my ear immediately as beiong so different from the "Jack Bruce sound". Curious how you'd rate that cut. I still harbor a suspicion it's actually a Starfire bass, since we know he had one at Monterey, in what I think was plenty of time for "Baxter's" sessions, and maybe he just doesn't remember using it on the Baxter's sessions.
For sure there's one live cut of "You & Me & Pooneil" (from Baxter's), I think it's the "Live at Fillmore East", that features what I would consider his finest live extended solo, and that's gotta be the Starfire, I think. That one's over the top with fuzz and feedback, very edgy compared to the woodier tone on ths studio cut. I'm wondering if it had already started to be "Alembicized"? I mention those two albums since I think they'd be pretty readily available to others who might want to listen and compare.

 

[idealassets]

I have never forgotten mgod's post over on the Pit about the time Jack C played one of his basses

Where can I find the Pit? I'm getting into these conversations.

Craig

 

[idealassets]

If there is anyone else who has sensed something similar and has the words to describe it, I would find that vocabulary helpful for the next time someone asks about which vintage bass to buy or whether to replace the pickups with Dark Stars

Right on! There was (is) something about that sound that I liked way back in 66', even when I had no idea what instrument it was. Jack states that the first thing he did was to remove te Starifre pickup and beef up the magnets, among a few other things.

If there is anyone else who has sensed something similar and has the words to describe it, I would find that vocabulary helpful for the next time someone asks about which vintage bass to buy or whether to replace the pickups with Dark Stars

With a Dark Star at only $200 it sure sounds do-able. I'd like to know the results. I will never touch my 66', since it is just the way it has been kept since new. But if a non original instrument were fitted with the Darkstar it might be an impressive bass.

Craig

 

[idealassets]

Correction:

Nevertheless there is a quality I hear in the recordings where he is playing a Starfire that I don't hear in the ones where he is not

Right on! There was (is) something about that Airplane bass sound that I liked way back in 66', even when I had no idea what instrument it was. Jack states that the first thing he did was to remove te Starifre pickup and beef up the magnets, among a few other things.

 

[fronobulax]

I have never forgotten mgod's post over on the Pit about the time Jack C played one of his basses

Where can I find the Pit? I'm getting into these conversations.

Craig

The short answer is that you can't. It was an online hangout that was originally populated by bassists but the owner/driving force kept trying to change it into a social media type site or otherwise make money from it and each time the back end software changed, it would lose people. Rumor was that it eventually died due to money problems.

I didn't find much but there is always http://www.archive.org and then looking at http://www.vintagebass.com/thedudepit or http://thedudepit.com Steve Barr was the driving force.

 

[fronobulax]

I still harbor a suspicion it's actually a Starfire bass, since we know he had one at Monterey

We do? The clips I could find from Monterey '67 show a Fender. One sample.

For sure there's one live cut of "You & Me & Pooneil" (from Baxter's),

This is a pretty definitive rendition. It is 1970 but clearly a Starfire II with humbuckers and "proto-Alembic" mods.

Speaking of which, do I see a Guild 12 string in Kantner's hands here? One that gets swapped mid-performance?

 

[Happy Face]

I am hoping that mgod can be prodded to relate it once again.

But here's the gist of it as I remember it: Jack came to his place and played one of mgod's basses. It sounded like Jack.

After Jack left, mgod grabbed the bass to see what the settings were and if it would now sound like Jack if he (mgod) played it. He found it sounded like mgod was playing it.

Please correct me if I bumbled this, Dan.

That story really stuck with me as a cautionary tale. You can buy the same equipment as a player you love, but it only gets you a part way to getting his or her sound. The bigger hurdle is learning that player's technique.

 

[adorshki]

I still harbor a suspicion it's actually a Starfire bass, since we know he had one at Monterey

We do? The clips I could find from Monterey '67 show a Fender.

Yeah I just realized I got that backwards when I was gonna mention to Ideal that the earliest Airplane stuff was probably Fenders.
I'm remembering a still photo around here of him in a classic '60's styles horizontal striped shirt that was credited as beint at Monterey, and I thought that was the one with a Starfire, but maybe I just have a bad memory cell there. While I was looking for it, I found the reference to when the Guild "possibly" made its first appearance:

I sent that on to Jack.

It was during the Baxter's sessions at RCA in Hollywood that Bob Hall brought him a Versatone to try out. He told me, "The first thing he did was turn it all the way up! I don't know why you'd do that, but as long as he bought it it was OK it me".

I'm not sure I remember clearly but the Guild may have made its appearance then too. By "Crown" its his sole instrument.

DS

PS - Jack's complete response to the above:

"Sir:

I used a 1965 Fender Jazz Bass for Baxter sessions.

Jack"

Ah! Just found the pic in question 2 posts down in the same thread!:
viewtopic.php?f=6&p=174198#p174198

This is a pretty definitive rendition. It is 1970 but clearly a Starfire II with humbuckers and "proto-Alembic" mods.

Thanks for that, but I am still sadly without a soundboard in this machine. Just to compare our usages, would you describe those Baxter's cuts I mentioned as having the "woody" tone, do you think it's all Fender as he states to Mgod? Or is there another example on any of the other stuff like "Crown of Creation" that better describes your meaning? I have all the original releases up through "Long John Silver" and the "Early Flights" anthology, and the first 5 Hot Tunas as well...
[/quote]

 

[adorshki]

If there is anyone else who has sensed something similar and has the words to describe it, I would find that vocabulary helpful for the next time someone asks about which vintage bass to buy or whether to replace the pickups with Dark Stars

Right on! There was (is) something about that sound that I liked way back in 66', even when I had no idea what instrument it was. Jack states that the first thing he did was to remove te Starifre pickup and beef up the magnets, among a few other things.

Actually at that time he was most likely playing Fenders as described above. Thus proving out Happy Face's story that the player and technique is still a far bigger factor than the equipment. :wink:

 

[Happy Face]

Actually at that time he was most likely playing Fenders as described above. Thus proving out Happy Face's story that the player and technique is still a far bigger factor than the equipment. :wink:

Actually mgod's tale, as recalled by an old geezer. (And I was thankful for it snce it doused my GAS for spending a lot of money for a Versatone.)

But confirmed tonight for me. I spent some time practicing a Who set for tomorrow night. I use a bass with rounds for those songs, right now a Steinie. Recalled there was a good live version of "I Can't Explain" on a laserdisc (yes, a laser Disc) upstairs. Threw it on.

Also on the disc was "So Sad About Us" from the Marquis Club in 1967. Damn, there was that Entwhistle sound. When i was a kid I always figgered he was using a Ricky, and i guess he did sometimes back then. But in this case he was using a P-bass. And playing with his fingers!

Just goes to show you.

Mind you, i wouldn't want to play a Who set with my JS-II strung with flats or with an EB-2 or whatever. But maybe that's just because I'm not all that good.

 

[idealassets]

This is a pretty definitive rendition. It is 1970 but clearly a Starfire II with humbuckers and "proto-Alembic" mods

This is a great bass solo. There's a clos-up of the pickups, and I see balck in the center, not chrome. Are these bi-sonics, and not really humbuckers?

For some really scary Airplane stuff check this out:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAJJE5Wo_OY&feature=related

Speaking of which, do I see a Guild 12 string in Kantner's hands here? One that gets swapped mid-performance?

I love Paul Kantner's work on the 12 string. This looks like a Guild F512, and sounds great. That's Slick Aguilar on lead guitar, formerly of KC and the Sunshine Band (disco- Shake Your Booty). Did you ever notice that even near 70 years old Paul Kantner still finds the hot chicks to play music with?

I made quite an inquiry blog on the Rickenbacker site about Paul Kantner's 12 string playing going back to the early Airplane. He was very original on the 12 string. At the same time George Harrison and Roger McGuinn were copying one another back and forth on the Ric 12 string. Kantner came out with some really cool and original stuff. Could he have been the highest paid chord strumming rhythm guitarist ever?

Back to Jack Casady, I'm still in awe. He took the bass from being the most borig "easiest to play guitar" and tuned it into quite a versatile lead instrument, especially when the time was right.

Craig

Craig

 

[mgod]

To veer back, I don't recall mgod's Dude Pit story about Jack Casady playing one of mgod's basses

And yet you do.