NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge? - Updated

[kostask]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Before I get into some details, please note that the things I stated about the bridge height is from Internet photos, and extrapolating from the Guilds I have here. It may be that due to the small sample size, I may not be correct in my belief that the bridge height is low. You should take this to a skilled luthier for a final determination.

By definition, if the bridge has been shaved, it will pass the straight edge test. This is why it was shaved down, specifically to pass that test. The straight edge test for bridge height assumes an unaltered bridge is being used to measure against. When it fails, as a short cut (not something I would choose, but many do), bridges get shaved down in an effort to make the guitar playable and put off the required neck reset.

The only way to verify the neck angle on a guitar that potentially has had a bridge shaved down is to measure the height of the strings off of the soundboard at the bridge. This will vary some, but most factories do have a range that they target. Frank Ford's Frets.com site may have something on this. A good, experienced luthier would be able to see the string height and tell that the bridge has been shaved, even if it passes the straight edge test.

Kostas

P.S. My luthier friends keep trying to get me to use the sight method vs. the straight edge, but my eyes are so bad that I just prefer the ruler method. To each their own. The sight method gets very tricky, for me, when the neck angle is on the fine line between being on the top of bridge or just below, I have trouble seeing it.

 

[cjd-player]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

The only way to verify the neck angle on a guitar that potentially has had a bridge shaved down is to measure the height of the strings off of the soundboard at the bridge. This will vary some, but most factories do have a range that they target.

Not really true unless you know the sting height dimension before the bridge was shaved.
With a dovetail neck joint, the builder does not know what the neck angle will be until after the guitar is assembled. A neck angle variation of just 0.1 degree will result in a height difference at the bridge of almost 1/16 inch. Because a dovetail joint cannot be fit to a precision of tenths of a degree for the neck angle, the manufacturers use bridges of different heights to give the appearance of a proper neck angle in relation to the fretboard straight edge test (lining up with the top of the bridge), and a reasonable playing action. The different bridge thicknesses are not chosen to maintain a consistent string height above the soundboard. Assuming that the saddle slots are all the same depth, the differing bridge heights will result in differences in the string height above the soundboard.

So with new guitars, differing bridge thicknesses can result in differences in string heights above the sound board of 1/8 inch or more. That's why there can be such noticeable tonal and volume differences between two guitars of the same model. Not only are the pieces of wood different, but the neck geometries and string heights will effect the tone as well. To a point, higher string height above the soundboard (greater torque on the soundboard) increases volume, and vice versa. But if the strings are too high, the increased torque can choke the soundboard vibrations.

The differences in neck angles are why some guitars need a neck reset relatively early in their lives, while others go for a long, long time with no reset needed. It depends upon the neck angle that left the factory, regardless of whether the plane of the fretboard aligned with the top of the bridge.

 

[kostask]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

I got into the frets.com website, and the link to check string height is here:

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Gu ... angle.html

The article covers use of a straight edge, and the sring height off the soundboard method.

The following are noted:

"If there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top, then the neck angle is just about right:"

"If there's less than 3/8" between the string and the top, then there's neck angle trouble:"

in this article from the same frets.com site:

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Gu ... idges.html

He notes some issues with thin/low bridges.

Again, I don't know for sure if the bridge on this guitar is too low, it just appears that way to me. It could have very well made that way. The age of the guitar is in the range at which I would expect a neck reset to be posibly required, if it hasn't already been reset in the past. Is there any evidence of a previous neck reset?

Kostas

 

[adorshki]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Again, I don't know for sure if the bridge on this guitar is too low, it just appears that way to me.Kostas

Yep, I wasn't trying to say you were incorrect, just pointing out another possible scenario for Zelja's guitar. When I looked at the closeups of the bridge, it didn't look like it had been sanded down and the contours looked original, unlike some other closeups I've seen of shaved bridges. The grain patterns show some relief which looks like the original finish to me. That's why I offered the specs on my instruments which are unmodified in that regard, for comparison.
Kurt made a good point about checking the angle with the strings tuned to pitch, I walked right by that one. But it's one of the reasons this place is so great, several viewpoints help give a broader insight even though obviously not all the possibilities can apply at the same time. It's just guidance on several possibilities to consider, which is what Zelja wanted. :wink:

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

I really can't tell if the neck has been reset or not. If it has, it's a good job. Re the bridge I don't believe it 's been sanded from the top but maybe it has from the bottom & then ben reglued. Hard to tell - it looks pretty clean but there my be a hint of glue residue at the back of the bridge. All questions for the luthier to work out.

With regards to string height above the soundboard, well I think it could be just 3/8" (or maybe a fraction less)once the saddle is done to give it a nice action ( I don't like it too low as I like to thrash it every now & again).

My JF30-12 is about 5/16" & the action could come down a metric smidge as well, but not too much room on the saddle - maybe 3/32" at the highest point.

Is it possible that both the Guilds I have in my hands are candidates for a neck reset? Considering that a reset with the recommended refret will set me back about $900 here, it may be worth re-considering buying used Guilds without seeing them or playing them. That would almost certainly mean not buying used Guilds at all as there are not too many about here (have played 1 in my life which was local). Still, overall, with cost of initial purchase & then repairs it's still cheaper to buy used from the US than to buy new here (e.g. I reckon I could get a new F50 for about $3700 here). I've seem shop demo units of D50s in the US though which were about $1600 - that would have been the better buy if the D50 I have does need a reset. Of course there something to be said for old wood etc but...

Before I panic too much I'll get this guitar's saddle fixed, setup & then see what she actually sounds like. I'm still learning about Guilds in general & my own Guilds in particular. I'll need to live with this one a bit before I see what I do with her.

Thanks to everyone for all the comments (& for the links Kostas - very informative). As adorshki said it's really interesting hearing all the different opinions, perspectives & experiences.

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Note also, when considering a guitar, I do try to ask all the right questions with respect to saddle height, action, evidence of bridge lift etc. The seller stated the action was one US quarter high (it's not, it's about 3 times that) & that the saddle was bone... Dissappointing, although to be fair, the seller was listing the guitar for someone else & doesn't appear to be a player or generally too well versed in guitar technicalities. Still sucks a bit though.

 

[chazmo]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Zelja,

Yup, get that to a luthier for a setup and have the saddle replaced. As others mentioned, if there's a neck problem, you'll find out.

That's a nice looking axe. Best wishes, and welcome back to Guilddom.

 

[RussB]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Reckon I'll throw my hat in the ring... :mrgreen:


First off, congrats on a sweet guitar! It looks great from your pics.


Second, the saddle. It appears that the saddle slot has been "hacked-up" pretty bad. The good news is that a luthier can easily re-route the saddle slot making flat bottomed, square and parallel. Then a new saddle can be fit. The extra width will give the luthier some extra "meat" to set the intonation properly.

The guitar won't be a good candidate for an under-saddle transducer though because the slot will be too wide.

It's a shame the seller lied to you about the condition of the guitar though :evil:

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Luthier can also fill the existing slot and cut a new one to accomodate a UST.

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Reckon I'll throw my hat in the ring... :mrgreen:


First off, congrats on a sweet guitar! It looks great from your pics.


Second, the saddle. It appears that the saddle slot has been "hacked-up" pretty bad. The good news is that a luthier can easily re-route the saddle slot making flat bottomed, square and parallel. Then a new saddle can be fit. The extra width will give the luthier some extra "meat" to set the intonation properly.

The guitar won't be a good candidate for an under-saddle transducer though because the slot will be too wide.

It's a shame the seller lied to you about the condition of the guitar though :evil:

As stated earlier, I don't think he meant to misrepresent the guitar on purpose, probably just a lack of knowledge (not his guitar, selling on behalf of a client). He appears to be working with me & may be willing to give a refund to cover some of the repairs (if it's just the bridge/saddle problem). He won't pay for a neck reset - understandable I guess, as it would cost a few dollars shy of what the guitar was sold for. He is also open to provide a refund if I return the guitar but if he's not willing to cover any shipping costs then it would cost me a packet (package too big for Aussie post & FedEx would charge about $400). Hopefully it won't need a reset...

Bummer if the slot would be too wide for a UST. I have bought an LR Baggs Anthem SL - which is a UST in combo with an under bridgeplate mic, with the UST predominately handling the lows. As GuildFS4612CE said, the luthier can fill & cut a new slot but I guess that will cost more but I only want to do this once & if I were to keep the guitar after these repairs, I would eventually want to electrify her. Don't think I'll get it the pickup installed initially as I still have very little idea of what she sounds like.

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

The guitar won't be a good candidate for an under-saddle transducer though because the slot will be too wide.

Just further on this, I'm assuming the problem with a wide slot/saddle & a standard & hence thinner UST, is the danger that the saddle will rock on the UST & not get good even contact with either the UST or the bridge. Yes/no?

If so, would it be possible to have the wide slot for the saddle & a slightly shallower & thinner slot in the middle for the UST, so good contact is made between the saddle/UST/bridge but the saddle doesn't rock on the UST? :?

 

[taabru45]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

get the slot filled, like inlaid...makes it like one solid piece again, then cut a slot to match the pickup and saddle....you don't want the pieces to fit like a jig saw puzzle......a good luthier will do that, no problem....do it right, and once..... :wink: Steffan

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

get the slot filled, like inlaid...makes it like one solid piece again, then cut a slot to match the pickup and saddle....you don't want the pieces to fit like a jig saw puzzle......a good luthier will do that, no problem....do it right, and once..... :wink: Steffan

Yep, your right. Why muck about!

Just out of interest, what material is used to fill the slot?

 

[taabru45]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Same material as the bridge is made of, and if done well you wouldn't even notice it....Steffan

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Well, I should give some closure on this thread. Thanks to all the good advice here I went to get it fixed & eventually it ended up at one if Sydney's premier luthiers. I first took it to a highly regarded shop/repairer & it ended up they couldn't do the repair! When I brought it in I aslo wanted him to clean the guitar up a bit because it was in reasonably rough condition but the guy said "Man, repairers don't like to clean guitars". Huh? :shock: :roll:

Anyway after wasting 2 weeks there, I got it to the other guy. He sorted it out & thankfully no neck reset or bridge shaving required. This is the result:

Apart from the bridge & saddle fix, I also got new bridge pins, a new bone nut, a Baggs Anthem SL installed & got the guitar cleaned up really nice. People are shocked at the age of the guitar when I tell them. The original seller also came to the party and gave me back a good chunk of change which helped finance the repairs, so that was good of him. Anyway , here are some pics:

I'm liking the guitar the more I play it - wasn't too sure about it at first. It seemed to have got a bit smoother over time - "opening up" or just the effect of taking the edge off the strings maybe, dunno. At times it doesn't feel too loud & then other times it does (I think that depends if I've been playing my electrics or not!). Just before I did a string change, I went overseas for a week & left the Tonerite on it. Could be a placebo but it did seem to be a bit smoother, richer & maybe a tad louder after that.

Either way, after an inauspicious start, I'm liking my impulse buy. 8)

Thanks again for everyone's help!

 

[fronobulax]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Well, I should give some closure on this thread. Thanks to all the good advice here I went to get it fixed & eventually it ended up at one if Sydney's premier luthiers. I first took it to a highly regarded shop/repairer & it ended up they couldn't do the repair! When I brought it in I aslo wanted him to clean the guitar up a bit because it was in reasonably rough condition but the guy said "Man, repairers don't like to clean guitars". Huh? :shock: :roll:

Thanks for the update.

I can kind of agree with the repairer. Cleaning is not as "fun" and you're not going to be happy if I actually charge you the same labor rate for cleaning that I do for fixing a crack and if I have enough repair work, I'm not going to want to do the work that I can't charge as much for.

You could make him regret that by sucking up lots of time asking questions about how to clean it yourself :wink:

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

I can kind of agree with the repairer. Cleaning is not as "fun" and you're not going to be happy if I actually charge you the same labor rate for cleaning that I do for fixing a crack and if I have enough repair work, I'm not going to want to do the work that I can't charge as much for.

I understand that but the main issue with the guitar, cleaning wise, is that it needed a good buffing on an industrial buffer thingy (technical terms here gents). I would also understand that the same rate would apply unless he's got an apprentice for these less skilled tasks.

Regardless my guy polished it up & buffed it up to a beautiful sheen for the sum additional total of $25. He also installed the pickup for just $25 as he said he was already going to be fiddling with the saddle slot due to the main repair. I was quoted $150 to $220 just to install the pickup elsewhere, so I'm very happy. All up $325 for the whole lot including supply of new saddle, nut & bridge pins.

The guitar looks really good now whereas the back & sides previously looked quite grimy & stained, which I couldn't get out by myself.

 

[Mad Rose]

Your Luthier, whoever he is, did a great job on the repair! You should be thrilled. The bone pins & saddle look 8). I once had a D-50, an '80 model. Looked just like your's. I should have held onto it ...

 

[davismanLV]

Well, it looks amazingly good. What a beautiful guitar. Sounds like you found a really great guitar repair guy! Enjoy the guitar!!

 

[taabru45]

beautiful....... 8) 8) Steffan