NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge? - Updated

[Zelja]

Picked it up at the post office today - D50NT, Serial No. 181570, which may make it a 1978 model. If so, from being Guildless10 weeks ago, it means I have now got 3 Westerlys from 3 different decades! 8)

The guitar cost me US $986 & another $135 to mak the 10,000 plus mile trip from Connecticut.

Shes's in definite need of a good clean up, inside & out, but overall I'll think she'll scrub up OK after a good clean, polish & service. Not too many unsightly nicks, cuts or general damage. The strings might be as old as the guitar (OK, slight use of hyperbolic extension) & quite dead as a result, so can't make any pronouncements on the tone until I order a new set & get them on.

The only thing of real concern is the rather funky saddle. It's a gold colour, not sure what it's made of & quite tall. It's on a fair bit of an angle (or maybe being so tall it accentuates that) but also it looks like when the saddle was put in a bit extra was gouged out of the bridge. I have read that it's good to have a very tight fitting saddle & on loosening the strings it's quite easy to rock this one back & forth a fair bit. I'm concerned that the slot is too wide now & I may need a new bridge.

I am also interested in getting the best saddle fit as I have a Baggs Anthem SL pickup which I would want to install in this guitar or the JF30-12 .The Anthem uses a UST & an internal mic, so I guess saddle fit is also important for that.

Action on the guitar is not too bad & there is plenty of room to take the saddle height down to lower it a good deal more, while still having a very decent break angle for the strings. It doesn't appear to have had a neck reset but then again I'm an amateur & could very well be wrong.

Any ideas/advice/comments on the saddle issue?

Probably look to get some D'addario EJ17s (13-56 PBs) - is that a decent string choice for this guitar?

Here are a few pics I took straight out of the box. I'll look to get some more up, along with the JF30-12, after I get her sorted.

Updated on page 3.

 

[jazzmang]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Loosen those strings and get it to a luthier fast. A saddle at that angle has a real risk of cracking the bridge!

 

[poser]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Here's a question from an ignoramus (me). Instead of replacing the bridge, would it be possible to shape a new saddle to fit the existing groove?

 

[GardMan]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Here's a question from an ignoramus (me). Instead of replacing the bridge, would it be possible to shape a new saddle to fit the existing groove?

Maybe... the current saddle looks like it may be rosewood or some other dark, hardwood. The end of the saddle slot has a different shape than any I have seen on a Guild before, suggesting that the slot might have been re-routed. Still, it may be possible to have a new bone saddle fit the the existing slot. Another option, short of replacing the bridge, would be to have the bridge routed for a 1/8" saddle (the original saddle on a '78 would have been 3/32" thick). I think Tacoma-era Guilds used 1/8" saddles (what's in the New Hartford Guilds?), allowing more "room" for compensating the saddle. Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

...... Another option, short of replacing the bridge, would be to have the bridge routed for a 1/8" saddle (the original saddle on a '78 would have been 3/32" thick). I think Tacoma-era Guilds used 1/8" saddles (what's in the New Hartford Guilds?), allowing more "room" for compensating the saddle. Good luck, and enjoy!

Dave - my '92 D30 has a 1/8" saddle and it looks to be the original size. I'm not sure when they went to the 1/8" saddle, but it would appear to be in the later Westerly years.

Edit: What thickness saddle is in your D55?

~nw

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

You will be able to get a new saddle fit for it.
If it was modified a luthier can fill it and re cut the slot.
Either way it's a simple fix for a pro.
Get it dome soon though and then enjoy your new guitar.

 

[taabru45]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Mine is DD100953....sounds amazing go get a piece of bone to fit that thing and it will sing.... Steffan

 

[kostask]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

This is just going from appearances, but the bridge height itself looks like the bridge may have been shaved down. If so, and I am perfectly willing to concede that this may not be correct, I would think that a new bridge, with a properly cut saddle slot would be the best way forward. Just an opinion.

Kostas

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Thanks for the replies guys - I'll just have to find a good luthier & get them to have a look.

The guy I took my JF30-12 to, is local & relatively inexpensive but a few things he did & said bug me & make me lose a little faith:

- had the first 2nd string in the same nut slot as the second 1st string - he tuned the guitar up, how did he not notice that?
- I asked him to check the bracing when the strings were off, to see whether it was scalloped or not. He said it was, but later when I got my camera inside the guitar, the pics revealed that they most definately are not...

There's a guitar maker here & they also do repairs - $80/hour which is pretty steep I think.

Anyway, I'll try to get the guitar fixed up acoustically before I worry about a pickup I think.

 

[Ross]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

This is just going from appearances, but the bridge height itself looks like the bridge may have been shaved down.

Perhaps some LTGers could measure the bridge heights on their D50s & post them, so that Zelja can compare with his.

 

[cjd-player]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

That is definitely not the original saddle that came with the guitar. That was put in by some clutz who had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Measure your saddle slot and send those dimensions to Bob Colosi:
http://www.guitarsaddles.com/.
He's is incredibly knowledgeable and is a fantastic guy to deal with. He'll make you a bone saddle to fit the slot. He'll send it slightly oversize with instructions on how to sand it down for a precise fit. It may be wider than normal, but there is no harm in that. Some custom luthiers use very wide saddles (1/4 inch) so they can get very precise intonation across the strings.

You'll just need to make sure the bottom of the saddle slot is flat before you install the new saddle.

 

[hideglue]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

That is definitely not the original saddle that came with the guitar. That was put in by some clutz who had absolutely no idea what he was doing.

Bingo. And as cjd recommends, replace w/ a proper sized saddle.

 

[taabru45]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

That is definitely not the original saddle that came with the guitar. That was put in by some clutz who had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Measure your saddle slot and send those dimensions to Bob Colosi:
http://www.guitarsaddles.com/.
He's is incredibly knowledgeable and is a fantastic guy to deal with. He'll make you a bone saddle to fit the slot. He'll send it slightly oversize with instructions on how to sand it down for a precise fit. It may be wider than normal, but there is no harm in that. Some custom luthiers use very wide saddles (1/4 inch) so they can get very precise intonation across the strings.

You'll just need to make sure the bottom of the saddle slot is flat before you install the new saddle.

I wonder if that much contact between the strings to the top via the saddle would actually increase the tone....My Conona D25 had a very narrow saddle but still sounded great a bit more bass across the spectrum but also had a mahogany top....wonder if a wider bridge would have made a difference? Steffan

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

That is definitely not the original saddle that came with the guitar. That was put in by some clutz who had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Measure your saddle slot and send those dimensions to Bob Colosi:
http://www.guitarsaddles.com/.
He's is incredibly knowledgeable and is a fantastic guy to deal with. He'll make you a bone saddle to fit the slot. He'll send it slightly oversize with instructions on how to sand it down for a precise fit. It may be wider than normal, but there is no harm in that. Some custom luthiers use very wide saddles (1/4 inch) so they can get very precise intonation across the strings.

You'll just need to make sure the bottom of the saddle slot is flat before you install the new saddle.

I got the strings off & removed the saddle. It was very loose in the slot.

Much to my surprise, the saddle is a big chunk of what appears to be brass - 1/8" wide & about 5/16" at it's highest point.

The saddle slot has definately been re-routed as GardMan suspected. The problem is that the slot is about 1/8" wide at the treble strings then gets bigger & is about 3/16" at the the bass end. The saddle went in about 3/32" into the slot. Parts of the slot are deeper than that due to the saddle being at an angle, with too much play in the bass side & the brass has gouged out a bit more. As a result the bottom is uneven. The bridge is about 1/4" high so I think there is enough wood available to level the slot properly.

I don't think I'm up to the task myself as I haven't got a dremel tool etc (plus if you saw my pencil case project from my school woodwork class you would not want me attacking a guitar!). Bob's 3/16" blank may be OK & I'll definately get some bone bridge pins from him. I'll find a luthier to do the job. With the thicker saddle a reasonable compensation job should be possible too, as you noted. With all the work needed to be done I'm in two minds whether to get the pickup installed at the same time or not.

Anyway, anyone ever seen a brass saddle in an acoustic before?

 

[kostask]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

I have seen brass nuts and saddles before, and there are still brass bridge pins available, if you look for them (why you would want to is a different discussion); this was some sort of trend in the 1970s, I think. If the front of the bridge is actually 1/4" high, it definitely sounds like it is low. The front edge on my DV-52 is .295" (I believe it may have been shaved down some, I got the guitar used, and this is a 6 string guitar), but that is an ebony bridge. I also have a factory Guild rosewood bridge, and it measures between .416" (at each of the end bridge pin holes, and .448" (between the 3rd and 4th string bridge pin holes, again a 6 string bridge). It has been mentioned that Guild bridge heights do vary to allow for matching with the neck angle, so yours may have come from the factory that way, but I believe that it is a little low. How is the neck angle on the guitar? if the neck angle is shallow, you may have a bridge that has been shaved down to avoid a neck reset, or like has been pointed out before, it may have been set up from the factory that way. Best to consult with a luthier at this point, I think (try to find a luthier that is experienced with acoustics).

Kostas

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

^^^^^
Hey Kostas. Oh man, you' are scaring me! Hard to say about the neck angle as I'm not that experienced with the ins & outs of acoustics but a potential neck reset is not what I need. I guess the bridge does seem a little low.

I'll be taking it to a luthier who comes highly recommended & seems to deal with acoustic so I guess all will be revealed then.

 

[adorshki]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Hey Kostas. Oh man, you' are scaring me! Hard to say about the neck angle as I'm not that experienced with the ins & outs of acoustics but a potential neck reset is not what I need. I guess the bridge does seem a little low.
I'll be taking it to a luthier who comes highly recommended & seems to deal with acoustic so I guess all will be revealed then.

I've learned a lot of things from Kostas' posts, but here's some "counterpoint" to help ease the worry: My D25's bridge is 7/16", so you're only 1/16 shy of the original height for THAT guitar. A quick and dirty method to check neck angle is to lay a straightedge along the fretboard (perpendicular to the frets) and note where the end meets the top of the BRIDGE. The ideal is to meet it exactly but that can vary by a few fractions due to other factors in the total set-up, including the fact that it COULD have been built that way. If it's more than about 3/32" high or low then it definitely needs to be looked at closely by your luthier.
Getting a bone saddle cut is the ideal solution, if the slot is salvagable to accomodate a new saddle. Also for reference/comparison purposes, my Corona D40's saddle is actually 5/32 thick, it's quite unusual, and that may be due to it's under-saddle transducer. So there's precedent (or would that be antecedence? :lol: ) for such a thick saddle. :wink:

 

[Zelja]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

A quick and dirty method to check neck angle is to lay a straightedge along the fretboard (perpendicular to the frets) and note where the end meets the top of the BRIDGE. The ideal is to meet it exactly but that can vary by a few fractions due to other factors in the total set-up, including the fact that it COULD have been built that way. If it's more than about 3/32" high or low then it definitely needs to be looked at closely by your luthier.
Getting a bone saddle cut is the ideal solution, if the slot is salvagable to accomodate a new saddle. Also for reference/comparison purposes, my Corona D40's saddle is actually 5/32 thick, it's quite unusual, and that may be due to it's under-saddle transducer. So there's precedent (or would that be antecedence? :lol: ) for such a thick saddle. :wink:

Haven't got a straight edge but approximating with a 12" ruler & with the strings off, it seems to align just a tiny bit above the top of the bridge, so maybe not too bad. I'll get the saddle done (either fitted to existing slot or slot filled & re-cut) & probably get a new bone nut as well.

Also looked inside & it seems to have shaved bracing & the large rosewood bridgeplate (in good nick) which I have seen on other pics on this forum. I have learned so much about acoustics on LTG in the last few months - really brings home how much of a major ignoramus I was (am now a slightly milder ignoramus).

 

[adorshki]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Haven't got a straight edge but approximating with a 12" ruler & with the strings off, it seems to align just a tiny bit above the top of the bridge, so maybe not too bad.

That's MUCH better than if it was below the top.

I'll get the saddle done (either fitted to existing slot or slot filled & re-cut) & probably get a new bone nut as well.

Be aware that about 1-1/2 years ago when I was getting the D25 re-fretted, the luthier told me GOOD bone is becoming scarce (read: $$$). Some folks here think some of the synthetics like Tusq or Corian offer equal and possibly better properties, as bone is subject to having "voids" in it (bad), while the synthetics NEVER will.
I DID get a bone nut/saddle in my '25 about 12 years ago and it DID improve volume and sustain.

I have learned so much about acoustics on LTG in the last few months - really brings home how much of a major ignoramus I was (am now a slightly milder ignoramus).

Yep, been playin' seriously for about 38 years and I KNOW I knew more than the average mope but I've learned more here in the last couple than I learned in the first 36. :shock:

 

[cjd-player]

Re: NGD - '78 (?) D50 - May need a new bridge?

Haven't got a straight edge but approximating with a 12" ruler & with the strings off, it seems to align just a tiny bit above the top of the bridge ...

You actually need to look at the neck angle with the strings on and tuned to pitch. You can't evaluate the neck angle without the strings on.
Although one is helpful, you don't actually need a long straight edge. You can just sight down the neck from the headstock. If the neck aligns high or low, you simply can't measure the distance as accurately without the straightedge.

If your neck seems to be aligning slightly high with the strings off, it may be spot on with the strings at pitch. The string tension will pull the neck forward a bit.


Doesn't make any sense that "good" bone is becoming scarce. Cows are slaughtered every day. Sounds like the luthier wants to promote his bone as better (and justifiably more $$) than other sources; unless there is a world-wide decline in cow quality. :shock: :mrgreen: