New Starfire bass with 2 pups

[fronobulax]

Ok, here we go. Initial impressions as they come to mind.

Thank you. I will be especially interested in comparisons to I guess what we should call the NS SF I now.

Interesting about the strings. I was OK with the factory strings but once I swapped to a set of flats to do some comparisons I have not put them back on my NS SF I. I wonder why Guild ships them with rounds?

Have a nice mini-vacation. We will await your report.

 

[ric426]

Ric: Is the label inside still the same like they used in all other Newark St. guitars? Here is an example from NAMM 2013:

Ralf

Yep, same label as my Newark St. SF Bass too. I didn't really object to the gold printing on the peghead, but I think it looks better without it.

 

[ric426]

Thank you. I will be especially interested in comparisons to I guess what we should call the NS SF I now.

So far I'd say they're virtually the same, just an extra pickup and electronics and the bridge pickup just slightly closer to the bridge. I haven't done an A/B test between the two basses, but that slight move of the pickup seems to give it more bark to the sound. I doubt that I'll use the bridge pickup solo'ed, but I'm pretty pleased with the sound of both pickups blended or the neck pickup solo'ed. I don't have to move my right hand up over the fingerboard to get a full sound now. It's got a much broader range of tone with two pickups, as you'd expect.

Interesting about the strings. I was OK with the factory strings but once I swapped to a set of flats to do some comparisons I have not put them back on my NS SF I. I wonder why Guild ships them with rounds?

My guess would be that it's cheaper to use round wounds and they might figure that younger players might relate to rounds better. It's not until we get older that we gain the wisdom and sophistication to appreciate flat wound strings.
Or it could be that we older players have lost so much high frequency hearing that flats and rounds sound the same to us and the flat ones just feel better. :highly_amused:

Have a nice mini-vacation. We will await your report.

Not leaving until Tuesday (assuming I can shake this sinus infection) so I'm sure I'll have more comments.

 

[ric426]

Here are a few more observations with my SF II:
The LaBella strings were a disappointment. The E string sounded like I was palm muting it the whole time and the G sounded weird. I didn't leave them on long enough to really investigate, but I'm going to compare them to the LaBellas I have on my P bass. I know the new set is a slightly lighter gauge, but the silk windings are a different color and the surface of the strings seem different. I put the new set of Chromes back on and they're much better, though not as even sounding as the set on my SF I. Those strings have been on and off several basses though, so it's hopefully just a matter of waiting until the new are broken in.

Has anyone experimented with shielding the pickup cavities on these basses? I'd sure like to reduce the hum level. It's worse on the neck pickup than the bridge pickup for some reason, but my SF I has the same issue. Not much you can do about it with single coil pickups except shielding unless you get into dummy coils and noise cancellation circuitry. I don't have Ron Wickersham's talents for that stuff though.

I really wonder about the loading effects of the multiple volume and tone controls. I've got some ideas for active FET buffers for each pickup and some variable LPF's similar to the Alembic circuitry, but it may have to wait until (or if) I work up the nerve to cut into a new bass. It'd be a nightmare to do it all through the F hole, but who knows. If I get the circuitry worked out well enough I may try that approach first.

The bridge leaves a lot to be desired, but I knew that going into it. One my first projects with be experimenting with some different materials for bridge pieces. That's something I can do without altering the bass. I've got a small mill and lots of different materials to try. Ultimately it'd be cool to try a more solid bridge and separate tailpiece, but again, that's not likely to happen until/unless I get up the nerve to start trying non-reversible mods.

Still more work to do experimenting with neck relief, string height, pickup pole piece height, etc.

I'll report more as it comes to mind.

Later,
Ric

 

[fronobulax]

The bridge leaves a lot to be desired, but I knew that going into it. One my first projects with be experimenting with some different materials for bridge pieces. That's something I can do without altering the bass. I've got a small mill and lots of different materials to try. Ultimately it'd be cool to try a more solid bridge and separate tailpiece, but again, that's not likely to happen until/unless I get up the nerve to start trying non-reversible mods.

PeteyBass, who drops in once in a while, makes and sells replacement saddles for the vintage bridges. He also experimented with metal saddles. My recollection is that the folks who tried them were kind of "meh" about the whole thing. They were brighter but not significantly so. Almost a decade ago when The Dude Pit was a thing that attracted bass players there was a European (Marcus?) who had put an Alembic style bridge and tailpiece on a Starfire. There was an improvement although the stories did not make me decide I had to find someone who could do the mod for me, mgod will have a better memory than I do if he hears his name and responds and some of this might be repeated or discussed on LTG.

 

[bassman10096]

PeteyBass, who drops in once in a while, makes and sells replacement saddles for the vintage bridges. He also experimented with metal saddles. My recollection is that the folks who tried them were kind of "meh" about the whole thing. They were brighter but not significantly so. Almost a decade ago when The Dude Pit was a thing that attracted bass players there was a European (Marcus?) who had put an Alembic style bridge and tailpiece on a Starfire. There was an improvement although the stories did not make me decide I had to find someone who could do the mod for me, mgod will have a better memory than I do if he hears his name and responds and some of this might be repeated or discussed on LTG.

I just received a JS 2 with twin Dark Stars and brass bridge saddles (on a traditional "harp"). I concur - brighter, but nothing dramatic (still keeping them on based on stubborn adherence to principle over sound).

The gentleman who machined Alembic-style bridges was Marko - a Finnish teacher if memory serves. Marko was a very bold hobbyist with really impressive fabrication skills. I recall him posting many of his creations The Dude Pit. The most outrageous I remember was an SF2-inspired semihollow he built from materials he obtained, including all the carpentry, millwork and machined his own Alembic bridge (not exact dimensions, but all the design elements were there and well done). I can't speak for Marko, but out of respect and appreciation for the Alembic-style bridge he machined for me (as a favor after I begged), I should point out that he appeared to be interested in the challenge to his creations, certainly not looking to produce for anyone else's consumption. The bridge Marko made me was a beauty - brass, machined to a design virtually the same as the bridge on my Alembic Brown Bass (dimensions varied enough to prevent viewing it as a knock off). It functioned beautifully on a Dark Starred EBO I had restored. It also looked fantastic! It sounded as good as any high mass, brass bridge would tend to, but not sure how that would compare to using it on a semi hollow. I'd like to hear how that bridge (or another high mass bridge) would sound on an SF. I did find that replacing the cursed Gibson 3 point bridge on a Casady with the Hipshot high mass Supertone made a very noticeable improvement in the sound.

 

[ric426]

I'm sure I won't be breaking any new ground with different bridge pieces, other than possibly trying some materials that hadn't been tested yet. Even then, I don't expect any spectacular results. I'm just a dedicated tinkerer/hobby machinist/electronics tech/woodworker with too much spare time and not enough money, who can't leave well enough alone. Playing around with bridge pieces is a fairly safe thing to do for now. My motto is "Why buy something when I can make it myself at twice the price, with unknown results, and take an indeterminate amount of time to do it?". I generally know my own limitations, especially with something I don't want to mess up, like a new bass.

As for a bridge/tailpiece assembly, I probably wouldn't try making my own since Hipshot and several other companies make much nicer ones than I could produce. Until the "new" has worn off and I'm confident I won't need any warranty work on it, the SF II is safe from non-reversible mods like new bridges or cutting access panels in the back. At least that's how I feel for now... :nightmare:

 

[Happy Face]

Be sure to chack out this thread before you consider working through the F hole.

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?186595-new-casady-lesh-inspired-bass-project

 

[ric426]

Be sure to chack out this thread before you consider working through the F hole.

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?186595-new-casady-lesh-inspired-bass-project

Oh, believe me, I know the nightmare of trying to work on anything through the F holes. Been down that road several times before with other instruments. My NS SF I even has a good quality jack and different tone control cap in it now.
I plan to change the jack in the SF II right away, try some pickup shielding and look into putting FET buffers on the pickups. Those can be made pretty tiny and can mount right on the backs of the pickups. The gotcha is where to put the battery, but I've got a few ideas. If/when I get around to an active variable LPF, it can be run externally. I use a couple of different 3 band EQ's mounted in boxes with bypass footswitches that way with my passive basses. If I decided to mount a pair of LPF's or a 3 band EQ in the bass, the opening for a dual 9v battery box set in the back could allow enough access to do a lot internally.

 

[edwin]

PeteyBass, who drops in once in a while, makes and sells replacement saddles for the vintage bridges. He also experimented with metal saddles. My recollection is that the folks who tried them were kind of "meh" about the whole thing. They were brighter but not significantly so. Almost a decade ago when The Dude Pit was a thing that attracted bass players there was a European (Marcus?) who had put an Alembic style bridge and tailpiece on a Starfire. There was an improvement although the stories did not make me decide I had to find someone who could do the mod for me, mgod will have a better memory than I do if he hears his name and responds and some of this might be repeated or discussed on LTG.

You are thinking of Marko. I have one of his experiments before Alembic asked him to cease and desist, at least in making them with same distinctive look. I think it works great and has been one of the best upgrades I've done to my bass. There are other folks who do something similar, including Alembic, obviously, but also, I think, Michael Dolan. It would be the first move I'd make with one of these. Prior to Marko's setup, I had a Badass I on there which was also an improvement, but not as much. This kind of bridge really puts the whole instrument into a resonant mode with the strings. The traditional bridge damps it.

Sometimes I miss the Dudepit, although I don't miss the fact that it was completely revamped with loss of great threads every 6 months.

 

[hieronymous]

Edwin, that bass is just so amazing looking!

Alembic is putting new electronics/pickups in my fretless M-85 II, but I'm sticking with the harp bridge for now. Down the road I might go for tailpiece/bridge, but kind of want to see how it sounds with the original first.

 

[ric426]

Well, as I was looking around for materials to try for different bridge saddles, I came across something that sent me off in a new direction. I've always liked Hipshot bass bridges and I discovered that they now make individual string bridges that mount from the top and are narrow enough to duplicate the string spacing on the Starfire. They're called the Hipshot SOLO bass bridge and sell for $28 a piece at Best Bass Gear. I ordered four of them and set about designing a base plate to mount them on that would attach to the bass using the same mounting screws as the harp bridge and so wouldn't require any mods to the bass. That way it's totally reversible if I choose to go stock again.

I'm still playing with the setup and different strings, but so far the results are pretty good. It's got individual height adjustment and intonation for each string and is way easier to setup than the harp bridge. The sound seems to be more even across the strings and up the fretboard, but it still retains the Starfire sound. It adds about 5 oz. of weight over the harp bridge, but it also makes the balance on a strap even better.

Here's the finished bridge and some of the steps in making it. I was originally thinking of making the base plate shape similar to the harp bridge, but that would have required a bigger plate and added more weight to it. I was planning on painting the base plate black and I figured that since it'll have the same chrome and black as the pickups, I'd make the plate a similar shape.

 

[fronobulax]

Interesting. I would not have thought of that but reversibility is worth a price. Thank you. How long before someone PMs you and asks you to make them a bridge plate?

 

[ric426]

Don't know about making many more of them because my mill isn't set up with CNC and so it's a lot of time consuming manual work, but I'd certainly be glad to share the drawing I made with the dimensions for the hole placements. If you're careful, the holes could easily be done on a drill press and once those are done, it's just tapping 8 holes, countersinking a couple more and shaping the plate as desired. One thing I did find that complicated things a bit is that the two holes for mounting the bridge are not quite centered on the center line of the pickups. That's something to watch out for if anyone wants to try doing something like this. Fortunately, the Hipshot bridges allow for some lateral string adjustment. The photos are from before I did the final adjustments. The strings do line up over the pickup poles.

I did the first versions with a brass base plate, but I've got aluminum and steel if I want to do more experiments. Titanium would be interesting but I don't have the equipment to machine that. I do have some small slabs of ebony. That could be nice. It could even include a little carving and/or inlay work, though I'd have to sneak in a ground wire that connects the metal pieces. I've got some ideas for other revisions too. I guess it's a good thing winter is coming and I'll be spending more time indoors.

 

[mellowgerman]

That is a pretty brilliant, not to mention sexy design! If it matters to you though, you should probably get that patented somehow before somebody starts producing them for profit. Might seem unlikely, but as I see it, people love mods and bridge improvements these days and the popularity of starfire basses is only going to grow from here. Alternately, you might even be able to sell the design back to hipshot.

 

[ric426]

Thanks. It'd probably cost me more to patent it than I'd ever make selling them though and I'm not inclined to start a business at this point. This was intended as more of a "look what I made" post. My part of it is really just the base plate. If Hipshot wasn't already making the SOLO bridges I probably wouldn't have bothered. If someone really wanted to try one I could make a few as time permits, but I wouldn't want to violate any rules here about commercial products. Any further discussion of that should probably occur privately. I'm not looking to start a business, so I'd just as soon share the basic measurements I came up with in case someone else wants to make one for themselves. It ain't rocket surgery... :joyous:

 

[johnbiscuti]

Absolutely awesome!

 

[edwin]

Very cool bridge setup. Have you noticed a difference in tonal quality, unplugged and plugged? I've gone through the original bridge, a Badass I, and the Alembic style. All made a difference, but the Alembic style was the biggest difference. The strings really resonated through the whole body, you can feel it against your body. It would be great if this had the same effect without the major surgery for the installation of the sustain block.

 

[ric426]

Yes, I definitely noticed an immediate difference. More clarity, more even response between string and up and down the neck, better sound unplugged and plugged. Like you mentioned, you can really feel the body resonate more. Prior to changing the bridge I had tried several different sets of strings and settled on D'Addario Chromes, though I wasn't totally satisfied with them. I had tried Labella Deep Talkin' flats and they sounded good but were too lifeless. With the bridge upgrade the Chromes had more sustain and balance, but almost sounded too much like a solid body bass. The Labellas are much livelier now but still retain a definite flat wound sound and bring out the character of the Starfire more than the Chromes ever did. I'll think I'll be using them for a while.

This bridge probably doesn't have as much overall mass as the Alembic setup and it would be hard to actually quantify the difference in response between the two, but I think it achieves a similar effect at a lot lower price and without any permanent modifications. I'm going to experiment with different materials for the base plate to see which I like best. I've got a nice piece of ebony that I'm going to try next because I think it'll be the most different from the current brass base plate. I'll also have more freedom in the shape and size without adding too much extra mass. I've got some ideas for a different string anchor setup that should work well with it, and if it sounds good I'll have some leeway to get a little artsy with it too. Steel and aluminum are a little more predictable based on what I've seen with other bridges, so I'll save those for later experiments. In any case I like having individual string height adjustments and quick release string anchors that the Hipshot bridges provide.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

Beautiful piece of work!