Lessons, Practice, & basic scales.

[Bing k]

A couple of my opinions about lessons and learning guitar:

One is to take every opportunity to play informally with other people. .

Very true, Play with others every chance you get.

If you take what we discussed about the key of C and apply it to other keys you can sit down with other players, ask or notice what key they are in and jump right in with improvisation right along with what they are playing.

Every time I sit down with someone else weather more experienced or not I learn something from them and hopefully them from me also.

 

[Blackfire]

The Learning Path

I have been reading this thread and thought I would chime in with my own tips on independent learning. I was pretty much at the stage of playing chords reliably and following along with chord progressions in song books and tabs. My technique improved but I was still ignorant of music structure as it relates to the guitar. I took lessons years ago but they did not progress beyond learning chords and some basic melodies that I memorized. I had no idea how the melodies related to the chords except that they sounded like they fit somehow. The past two years I have worked hard to improve my guitar knowledge on my own and came across some great references that finally integrate chords, scales and the guitar. Now I know why the piano and the guitar are probably the best all-round musical instruments and for some bizaare reason these are the only two instruments that are not taught in schools. It may have something to do with the fact that both instruments do not fit into a marching band (I also played trumpet in High School).

I have purchased probably 80-100 guitar books (mostly in lots on Ebay). The best beginning reference I found is the Hal Leonard Guitar Method. This will take you through the major chords and scales in paced lessons that I found were very easy to follow. The book also comes with 3 CDs. I also went through the Hal Leonard Acoustic Guitar book. After I went through these, the next reference that I found was the awesome Blues You Can Use and More Blues You Can Use. These books go much farther and deeper than the titles suggest. They are also very well-designed lessons that pace you through each major position and scale. The guitar is a marvellous instrument in which you essentailly use 5 patterns to make the major and minor pentatonic scales for every key. Most other guitar references just show you the scales in each key and never tell you that they are made from the same 5 patterns. The blues scale is derived by adding two notes to the minor pentatonic scale in each of the 5 positions. Once you know these 5 patterns, you can quickly pick out melodies in any key. This enables you to improvise and quickly figure out how the melodies were created.

For example, in the past, I would play a song like Ashokan Farewell strictly from the tabs and with enough practice, I sounded resonably well. However, I had no idea which key I was in and if someone said, "Ok, now we are going to play it in D", I had no idea what they were taking about. When I was practicing the major pentatonic scale, something started to sound familiar. I realized that I was playing part of the Ashokan Farewell melody. I then picked around the major pentatonic scale a little while and found the melody. By playing the same pattern within the C major pentatonic, or the D major pentatonic, I could play the melody in any scale up and down the neck. Wahoo! I discovered music!

The next major resource I found was the Fender G-Dec Amplifier. It is very low powered when it comes to volume, but very high powered when it comes to learning the guitar. It includes a number of great tracks in every guitar style I can imagine plus a number that were invented by the Fender people. For example, they have a track called Think Floyd, that plays the background instruments similar to the style of Pink Floyd. With a turn of the dial, I can program the background tracks to play in any key I want to practice in. I then play a melody or improvisation in one of the five major or minor pentatonic scales in that key. It is a wonderful way to practice. Since the track keeps repeating over and over, its actually hard to stop playing. The amp also has controls so you can modify any of the tracks and even add your own. It also has MIDI inputs and an extra audio input for a CD or MP3 player.

Once you learn these basics, you can play along with any popular recording. Most popular music does not go beyond this. There is nothing to give you more confidence than to play along with Eric Clapton, Mark Knopler or Chet Atkins if you can get the key they are playing in, even if your picking is just running up and down the pentatonic scale.

Fortunately, most popular music is just a variation on the venerable 1-4-5 pattern of the blues. In C, that is C, F & G (the Carter Family); in E (my favorite) it is E, A and B. Of course, these are often E7, A7 and B7 (Memphis Minnie). If I play these along with the blues scale in the same key, I sound like the back up guy for Al Green.

I also noticed that I can analyze the patterns in the songbooks and tabs. For example, I noticed that the Gershwin brothers went with a 1-4-7 pattern for Summertime. They also used some minor chords. In E, this is E7, Am and Dm. The minors give the song its melancholy tone. Although they went with a 1-4-7 chord pattern with some minor chords, you can still improvise on Summertime using the blues scale in E. Believe it or not, this song sounds best when I play it on my pearwood Mark IV classical guitar. Not only is a pearwood guitar great for stumping your guitar buddies (Guess what kind of wood this is?), it even sounds like nothing you have quite heard before.

There is obviously a lot I still don't know but I am on the way to making playing much more fun. There is nothing like learning the secret code. I only wish instructors taught me some of this early on. I have a feeling that many guitar instructors either don't know basic theory, or they believe it is too advanced for the novice. I also think many instructors learned this on the piano and did not learn the fingering patterns associated with the guitar.

I hope I haven't gone on too long or presented obvious facts to people who know this already. From the tenor of the posts, I have a feeling that a lot of us are in the same learning boat and would benefit from observations we have each made about learning the guitar on our own.

 

[Graham]

Great insight Blackfire.

 

[doc]

Blackfire, I just read what you wrote and they very good points you made and would add that learning the CAGE system, which is completely created around unique layout of the guitar fretboard and not the piano keyboard. A good book for that system that I stumbled into is Fretboard Logic SE by Bill Edwards. There are probably other books that teach the CAGE system. This is a neat blues site called Slowhand Blues Guitar, of course, after Eric Clapton. http://12bar.de/index.php Also, I plan to get those two books on the blues you mention as I just found them on Amazon.com.
The other pretty good site is http://www.guitarnoise.com Enjoy 8)

 

[Jeff]

Jamman update

What a blast !!!!

The Jamman has been merciless, hit the pedal & she records just exactly what you play, warts & all. I thought I played a few tunes pretty well till I started listening to myself. Missing, & extra, measures or even worster, half measures, made it suck. It really hurt so I started counting things out a little better.

I finally got the fingerpicking timing down pretty well & laid down a respectable track, by my humble standards anyway. The tune is a melancholy ballad in "C" & it's has a nice progesssion: 1, 6, 1, 2; 1, 6, 1, 5, 1; 1, 2, 3; 1, 4, 5, 1, 6; 3, 5. 1. Something like this anyway with a couple 7ths.

Started Jamman loop looping the Fingerpicking rhythym, then almost by accident, found the C scale at the 12th fret & started noodling around. I never knew it but the F 20 plays pretty well there, I can reach the top four strings nicely & it rings sweet & clear there.

At first I was stumbling but kept looking for the scale & the sweetest melody started coming out of the F 20. Triplets I guess is where it started , nothing really but doodling around the scale but it added so much magic I'm amazed. I never knew what the F 20 sounded like up there & it's freaking sweet. I got the high lead (melody) moving where it sorta had something & hit the overdub.

Blowing my doors off, I can't believe this little guitar sounds the way it does. Sweet, magic tones & sustain like an electric. Absolutely amazing how the scale plays over all the chords. First time ever I played nice lead guitar. Guaranteed to make you grin.

I did find two dead notes on the high E string up there I didn't know were dead & I've had the guitar four years. Should be easy to remedy, maybe 2 frets need to be tweaked.

 

[Graham]

You're up a little late / early there Jeff.

 

[RussD]

Jeff said: I thought I played a few tunes pretty well till I started listening to myself. Missing, & extra, measures or even worster, half measures, made it suck. It really hurt so I started counting things out a little better.

After all these years of lessons, recording, and playing (nicely) with others, I am still brought back to the importance of basics by a good metronome. I often forget how easy it is to lose a listener if they can't tap their foot along with my music. It's a cruel tool, but worth it's weight in applause.

 

[Blackfire]

Keeping time

I found that playing in time was a major advantage of playing with the Fender GDEC amplifier. When I played along with a track, it was like playing with a set of musicians who keep perfect time. I had never done that before. Even when playing with others, we all varied the tempo as a group. It was sort of like the wave at the baseball stadium: you have to stand up when the wave comes by regardless of the tempo. The GDEC players always keep the exact tempo no matter what, and they keep at it until you turn the thing off. Of course, you can also set whatever tempo you want them to play. Keeping a standard tempo was hard in the beginning because I mostly played alone in the past. When alone, I could play along and change the speed when I feel it is too fast or too slow. I can also stop when I want to. The GDEC reminds me of my old high school band teacher/conductor: "Watch me, watch me, you are all playing different tempos!"

 

[Jeff]

Russ & Blackfire,

Thanks to your discussion on metronomes & timing I finally got a tune figured out.

I always thought it was one of the prettiest things I played till I recorded myself. Sounded nothing like I had in my head. Been frustrated for days counting 1,2 3, 4; 1, 2 3, 4 & it just reeked.

Earlier I was listening to a playback & just plain depressed, turned on a little $9.95 Korg Metronome while listening & started trying to tap the rhythym in, tried everything, nothing worked; never, ever, thought to try 3/4.

I never knew the patterns I had in my head were 3/4. Changed the metronome to 3/4 & recorded it counting 1,2,3; 1,2,3 & stuff I've been struggling with for a long time started fitting. I'm still not sure it's 3/4, might just be the way I count.

I should feel really dumb, instead it's been a good session & I'm happy.
Real happy none of you have been watching this.

 

[Graham]

Glad to hear you're still having fun with that Jeff, still waiting for a soundclip though.

 

[Jeff]

In praise of scales

Faithfully practicing scales has been an amazing experience for me. I can't believe what it is doing to my ear. I have miles to go but never in 40 years have I felt as good about learning to play.

I received this e valentine from a cousin. http://www.riversongs.net/Fla/reflecting.html

It's a really pretty melody, simple, probably very simple by musical standards but pretty. My lady says to me "I'd sure like you to learn to play that tune".

Well it's Valentines day so I started trying to pick it up by ear on the DV 62. I identified the key, "C" I think , somewhere around C anyway, but was having trouble following some of the chord changes. The tune's about 8 bars by my estimation & it loops endlessly till you shut it down.

I started noodling around the C scales & ended up at the 12th Fret, totally out of my league, learning by ear, after about 10 minutes things started to harmonize & I could figure out where most the "Missing Chords" were.

I never could follow the melody exactly but I was in there gently rocking back & forth over the melody. Forgot all about the chords & entertained myself for the better part of an hour. About 15 minutes of that hour was an absolute gas.

What a rush, for me almost a spiritual experience, after all these years melodies are coming to me.

 

[Graham]

Nice.

I gotta start practicing some scales.

 

[iamru02]

WOW. what a great thread!
First, I'm right there with ya West, you and I share more than a similar homeland. I've been learning for 42 years and most of the stuff in this tread is way beyond me. I've mentioned before, where we come from we learn three chords, vary the tempo and change the words and there ya go. I learn the best by watching people, following in a get together jam, monkey see monkey do. The most advances I made was when my best friend and I would take our guitars and a six pack to the day room in the military dorm in NM. Before the night was over, the room would be full of players and a few cases. Some good memories but I'm glad part of the memories are just memories. Ha, probably would be a lot further on guitar if I could remember past the first 6 pack.
Another good friend of mine showed me how to transpose from one key to another so THAT expanded the first 3 chords into 6 major keys. I was on a roll. I almost didn't listen when he said it was simple. mathmatics....yuch! At least I could transpose a memorized song into a key that I could sing it in, when no one was around of course.
Clapton's unplugged dobro started a fire and I started finding everything I could on bottleneck blues slide. "The Blues had a baby, and they named it Rock and Roll" Thats when I learned, some 25 plus years later that those 3 chords that West and I learned back home was part of the 1, 4, 5 chord progression. Instead of transposing on paper (mathmatics-yuck) I can now count on my fingers after I find the root chord. Yehaw!
Things got complicated when I read somewhere that Carol King revalutionized Rock and Roll by adding a 6 chord to the 1, 4, 5 progression, now I had to use both hands :? Then, I think it was Acoustic Guitar Mag, did an article about the Everly Brothers and how one of them capo'd his guitar, played the same 1, 4, 5 progression but was in harmony with the other brother although the chord positions were different. I'll have to find that in my archives of books and re-read it.
Thanks to this thread, now all those numbers (finger rule) on my Wally World Guitar Scale poster makes sence, applying the 1, 4, 5 rule to notes, not just chords, and Jeffs contagious enthusiasm, here I go again.....and of course, all will be done on a Guild. What more could a man ask for.
Guess I'll be learning scales Jeff.

 

[iamru02]

Jeff,
I'm once again way out of my league here but a few years ago I memorized Cat Stevens "Wild World" from an instructional CD. I stumbled onto the fact that the little "riff" (?) he plays was just a decending scale. He uses a pull off on the 1st and third note to make it sound the way he does but I just grabed the Guild and I'll be a monkey's uncle, it's an open position C scale decending from the B string, 1st fret. Amazing how he took a basic scale and turned it into a neat little run. I learned from this thread, miracles never cease

 

[walrus]

This is a great thread! I started playing in a little jazz ensemble at the college I teach at. Two jazz professionals/teachers, and three or four of us amateurs. I have no ability to read music, just played chords for years. Well, this has forced me to learn blues scales and major scales - quite a bit of work, but well worth it! My solos and improvisations are steadily improving - light years from where I started two years ago. And, best of all, the teachers time is free for us.

I also play gigs with this little band - another overwhelming but amazing experience. And since the pros play with us, we always sound pretty good!

walrus

 

[Guildmark]

I also play gigs with this little band - another overwhelming but amazing experience. And since the pros play with us, we always sound pretty good!

Where can we hear you?
[IMG:640:480]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/Guildmark/640x480b.jpg[/img]

 

[walrus]

Nowhere right now, unless you see us "live" in Massachusetts. We have so far only played school events - nerve-wracking enough for me right now.

The one exception is last month we played a jazz club called ""Ryles" in Cambridge - just a few songs, along with the bands made up of all the music school's other students. When it was over, one of the teachers asked me if I had fun - I said "I think so, but I was so nervous I don't remember!".

So along with the lessons, I am getting over stage fright little by little. Again, both things are well worth it - at my age I am happy to continue learning and improving!

walrus

 

[john_kidder]

New examples of the benefits of constant practice

Nora Plays Piano

 

[Graham]

Sure but can she play a 12 string? :shock:

 

[HoboKen]

Hey Folks......all this talk about scales and practice and recording one-self to hear how well one is improving got me thinking......

I bought a Yamaha AW16G CD recorder awhile back that I strated to use to do play back, etc., 'cause it was simple to operate and I used it maybe five times before my son got me to using the Roland VS-2480 DVD/SI-24 recording unit in our studio.

The Yamaha AW16G has been just sitting around and maybe I ought to sell it now that I use the Roland all the time. I don't know what one is worth used in very good condition on the average on e-bay......but if anyone is interested, I could find out.

HoboKen