Latest Starfire I With Bisonics?

twocorgis

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This one just surfaced on eBay for an ambitious starting price, and the serial number would seem to date it as sometime after 1969. It's also quite a bit later than any of the serials contained in Frono's Starfire Bass Porn page. This must be very close to the time the changeover to the Guild humbuckers came.

$(KGrHqJHJBYFHydeggWtBSBr(dFK5g~~60_57.JPG


Overall, it looks to be in very good shape, with a different burst than I'm used to seeing on these; more of a cherry burst. I wonder what happened to the back of the headstock, though?

$(KGrHqNHJFQFH+s2IPcNBSBr(Vbqzw~~60_57.JPG
 

mavuser

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That is a heavilly flamed maple finish for a 69-70. Have we seen something like that so early? The body looks to be in much better shape than the neck, although not perfect. I guess that's the original finish on the body? Equally curious about the headstock too. Although it may have started off as nothing, and someone made it worse by trying to address a smaller issue (in the finish)? I think I see the serial number on the headstock (not sure). But the sticker is intact. Would be a good one to see in person. That flamed sunburst is pretty nice! But yes price a little ambitious. I still think someone may go for it though (or at not much less). If not... one of us should go for a local deal at the right number (upon inspection) as long as the finish is original. My guess is it is but of course I really don't know . Fwiw the auction has free shipping and includes the case. Some of us have done better recently but this one could be nice at the right price. The seller might not be too far off, I'd bet it can be had for a fair price cash/local. (Take out eBay/PayPal/shipping and potential "online transaction headaches" ...combined w someone that needs cash....) and it could be a lot closer to a square deal for everyone. That bass in that color is in pretty high demand (as long as there's no surprises)
 

chefothefuture1

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I'm leary of the different instrument in the details and description.... Doesn't look like a Les Paul to me....
 

mavuser

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I'm leary of the different instrument in the details and description.... Doesn't look like a Les Paul to me....

nice catch. I missed that. odd.

I was more focused on the discrepencies in descriprion and pictures. I guess "like new" means different things to different people. bass still looks nice but overall this particular ebay auction is a bit of a wildcard on several levels. might be worth checking out in the flesh though, for anyone that is able to do so.


price is a little high for sure, they really went at the back of that headstock. might not bother some people though. 2 of the rosewood saddles are off color and could be replacements.
 
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twocorgis

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That is a heavilly flamed maple finish for a 69-70. Have we seen something like that so early? The body looks to be in much better shape than the neck, although not perfect. I guess that's the original finish on the body? Equally curious about the headstock too. Although it may have started off as nothing, and someone made it worse by trying to address a smaller issue (in the finish)? I think I see the serial number on the headstock (not sure). But the sticker is intact. Would be a good one to see in person. That flamed sunburst is pretty nice! But yes price a little ambitious. I still think someone may go for it though (or at not much less). If not... one of us should go for a local deal at the right number (upon inspection) as long as the finish is original. My guess is it is but of course I really don't know . Fwiw the auction has free shipping and includes the case. Some of us have done better recently but this one could be nice at the right price. The seller might not be too far off, I'd bet it can be had for a fair price cash/local. (Take out eBay/PayPal/shipping and potential "online transaction headaches" ...combined w someone that needs cash....) and it could be a lot closer to a square deal for everyone. That bass in that color is in pretty high demand (as long as there's no surprises)

Leominster MA is home to our very own Bill Ashton, who might be willing to help an interested party, and it's close enough to LMG4 that a meet-up and pickup could be arranged there. I would also be willing to help ship if need be after the tour, and already have a suitable box here. At the starting price, by the time the seller pays the final value fees ($250), and 3% PayPal (another $75), and shipping (at least $50) this bass should be able to be had for $400 less than the starting price for a cash deal. I'm guessing that this one may not even attract an opening bid at that price, so it might be good to wait it out and see if it gets re-listed for less. Other than the back of the headstock, this one looks to be in really great shape for its age.
 

fronobulax

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My bass porn deliberately stops at 1967. I have one 1968 bass there but since my goal was to document that changes in the bridge, I could stop at 1968 and do that. My experience has been there is not much visible difference from the mid-'67 to circa 1970 when they switched to the humbucker.

Speaking of which, I have not gathered the data to be precise, but everything I have seen and can recall is that the Starfire and the newly introduced JS got the humbuckers at the same time and that time was in the calendar year 1970. I have never seen a 1971 instrument with Bisonics but have seen a couple of 1970's with Bisonics. 1970 was an interesting year for the JS because there was a two bisonic configuration, a neck bisonic and bridge "baby Hagstrom" configuration and possibly a dual Humbucker all produced in 1970.
 

mavuser

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also this bass has the larger of the 2 headstocks recently discussed in several other threads. it must have been one of the very first to get that, and/or one of the very last with the Bisonic. It also must be one of the first ones to have that heavy of a flame/figured finish. is that something they started at the new Westerly factory? ive never seen one with Bisonic(s) have a finish like that. if everything checks out on this, the bass appears to be a somewhat unique/transitional piece. find me another with that headstock and that pup (im sure more than one of u actually can! possibly in the same room!) seriously though, the suck switch is there, the serial # seems right...

this bass has some explaining to do, and none of us have seen or heard it but the more I try to find something wrong with it (other than the obvious) the cooler I think it is. I am really hoping Hans, and anybody else, checks in on this one. my big question is the finish but at this point I have no reason to doubt it was done at one of the Guild factories. (I can't tell if that's a Hoboken or Westerly sticker in the picture) a cool and mysterious Guild. at least so far.
 
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twocorgis

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It's definitely a Hoboken sticker Eric, but as Hans has told us many times here, that doesn't necessarily mean it was made there. :confused-new:
 

fronobulax

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also this bass has the larger of the 2 headstocks recently discussed in several other threads.

I'm getting a little confused. For the period 1965-1977 I believe we have established that there were two headstock sizes with the smaller being the earlier. I thought, however, that the larger headstock came out circa 1970/71 when the switch to humbuckers was made. Did I miss some evidence that the switch occurred earlier? If so when? Would it correlate with the curved bridge and the tone switch in mid-'67?
 

mavuser

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I'm getting a little confused. For the period 1965-1977 I believe we have established that there were two headstock sizes with the smaller being the earlier. I thought, however, that the larger headstock came out circa 1970/71 when the switch to humbuckers was made. Did I miss some evidence that the switch occurred earlier? If so when? Would it correlate with the curved bridge and the tone switch in mid-'67?

The bass that is the subject of this thread appears to be a 1970. It appears to be a very rare one in that it has the Bisonic, but with the "Humbucker headstock." an extremely transitional example. I will go as far as to say:

-Possibly the last Bisonic put on a SF bass. If not it must be one of the very last of them. By that point they may have just run out of bridge pups or been using the last of things. Perhaps a SF 2 made on the same day, or in the same week, wound up with Humbuckers instead. And maybe even SF1s in the same room, on the same day, got the humbucker...(similar variation for the JS during the same time)

-Must also be one of the very last with the "BA" designation in the serial #, if not the last SF bass that has that...

-Among the very first batch that have the newer, larger headstock seen on 70's SF and JS basses

-And based on Sandy/Hans previous info somewhat suspect of a possible Westerly instrument with a Hoboken sticker (that we may never know, unless Hans or one of the other hardcores can figure that out)...And thanks Sandy, I can see now the picture clearly shows its a Hoboken NJ sticker (was on my phone previously)...So one of the very last Hobokens or very first Westerlys. maybe a little of each?

-Quite possibly the only Guild SF bass, or one of very few, that has the Bisonic pup together with the (larger) "Humbucker headstock." (I believe we have seen some 70's JS basses like that. Pretty much any JS bass has the larger headstock, and some had Bisonics)

It is also the earliest one ive seen that figured maple on. on that note... I must confess, I had thought the "figured/flamed/quilted" maple bodies were an artistic/luthier skill when applying finish. I did some research though and it appears to be a natural process in the way the tree grows, together with the way it is cut with a saw. Sounds like there are guitars, in general, a lot older than 1970 that have that. Ive just never seen a Guild SF bass that old, that had that.
 

fronobulax

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OK. Lot of speculation there but I had lost sight of the fact that the discussion was about a specific 1970 bass which is exactly the time frame that would encourage, and perhaps even require, such speculation.

Speculation about running out of Bisonic PUs needs to take into account M-85's and JS II's with Bisonics since we don't know what what was produced when.

As noted maple Starfire basses were available almost since the beginning and the grain (figured, quilted) is a function of the way the wood grew and was cut.

I don't think the marketplace gives a rat's tootie about the larger headstock until we start a rumor that the larger headstock makes the bass neck dive and virtually unplayable :)

For future reference the serial is BA-2075, which is almost certainly a 1970 bass because Guild did not switch over their numbering schemes on the first day of the calendar year.
 

mavuser

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I don't think the marketplace gives a rat's tootie about the larger headstock until we start a rumor that the larger headstock makes the bass neck dive and virtually unplayable :)

little things like the suck switch and/or larger headstock on a Bisonic SF bass offer me the comfort of knowing I am not playing the same exact vintage model SF bass as the Mgods and Cat Poppers (and Fronos!) of the world. I am so not worthy. A little separation from the pros is nice! Seriously though ownership of any of these instruments (even w humbuckers), for me, comes along with the internal understanding that I might just be keeping it warm for someone else at some point. We'll see in time but i'm always open to getting it into the most worthy hands, where the most ears will hear it, if the instrument is indeed that special.

Also I have REALLY grown physically comfortable playing my 1972 JS1. It is officially as close to me as modern science will allow. The 90s SF2 Bass also seemed effortless and as perfect feeling as it could be, for the less than one hour I have played it. So for me, I have no reason to think that I, personally, would prefer the smaller headstock, if it were even possible to notice a difference. Jules' 67 SF1 has the smaller headstock, but the deeper body (than a 90s reissue), chunky Bisonic and thumb rest were the big (small) differences I could "feel" based on what i've played. didnt even consider the headstock.

Also as we have discussed in other threads, the headstock size could affect the way it fits, or if it fits at all, into a hard case, depending on which hard case.
 

fronobulax

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Mgods and Cat Poppers (and Fronos!)

I am SO not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath. Remember I'm the guy who has been playin' at bass for 30+ years (tuba was so not cool as the only instrument), strted my first lessons a few weeks ago and am "drinking from a fire hose".

And yeah, I need to take some measurements for the case and headstock debate.
 

mavuser

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I am SO not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath. Remember I'm the guy who has been playin' at bass for 30+ years (tuba was so not cool as the only instrument), strted my first lessons a few weeks ago and am "drinking from a fire hose".

And yeah, I need to take some measurements for the case and headstock debate.

well your legendary status goes way beyond musical talent, and I am sure you are rich with both. Hey man, life on the road aint for everyone. But u still have the same bass as those rockstars. And sorry if I left anyone out I know there are several other major leaguers on this forum. not sure who has what bass, or really even who is who, but u all rok. Frono I imagine you sound pretty good. playing that SF1 definatley helps!

on the case thing I am actually pretty straight on a lot of that, including the headstocks. I actually have been gathering info and will share it all with ecveryone once you can provide the final info that I am lacking. Although said final info may not be so significant, if we cant get a Newark St. TKL case separate from the instrument. Even with the part #, which you so graciously provided, that could be tricky, and likely on the more expensive side, than say, a Cassidy case, which is looking more and more like the universal answer for the vintage, and probably for any, SF bass. But there are some other options out there, as obscure and expensive as they may be.

Frono what we need to know from you is:

Is the body of the Newark Street bass skinny like a 90s SF bass or wider/the same depth as your 67 SF bass?

does the top of the body of the 67 stick out of the Newark Street case? I am clear the bass fits in the case, but if its a deeper body, does the body clear the plane of the bottom of the case? basically what I am asking is, would it be too tight/snug if you put the 67 in the Newark St case and closed it up and latched it (presumably for long term storage). would you be comfortable doing that?

let us know and i'll update the case thread significantly.

back to the headstock thing, that part might be tough to really nail...but all of this endless banter is just leading everyone to the Cassady case anyway, so that should be fine for both the larger and smaller headstock. will confirm for sure before I make that big post.

but the interesting thing is the headstock size might not make a difference, its more the tuners and the difference could be so insignificant there, that the bigger one might fit them all anyway. one thing that is clear though, the original cases did change/evolve slightly in the mid-late 60s (and presumably into the 70s) and/or they used more than one simultaneously, at any given point. It would be very difficult to make a blanket statement and say "a 70s (headstock) SFB fits in a mid 60s (headstock) SFB case" or "a 72 fits in a 67 case" or anything like that, even if that does appear to be true, or very well may in fact be true...there is quite a bit of variation in the cases, although many of them look very similar. FWIW the OHSC for Jules' 67 SFB is very tight in the headstock/tuner area (on the sides). I would imagine the larger headstock in that one would just be too tight. the 67 barely makes it (and the 90s one does not fit it). that case has seen better days and may have formed or for lack of a better term "shrunk" a millimeter or so over the decades. it has definitely done its job though, A+

looks like the case for this 1970 bass we are discussing may have helped to damage the finish in the middle of the neck there, right where the case cradles the neck and the storage box "lift tab" (leather?) was resting/rubbing on the neck. maybe there was some movement there (in the case) or it was put away wet?

very curious about the headstock too. some case contact at the very top of the headstock may have started a problem that someone made a lot worse. or I was thinking maybe someone took the tuners off at some point, and took some finish off when the screws came out. what do u do with that? hit it with clear nitro? it looks totally stripped. would maybe just hit the entire back of the headstock and neck with a coat of clear, no? also curious what the front of that "humbucker headstock" looks like. probably fine, since the seller was detailing the problem areas.
 

Happy Face

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OK. Lot of speculation there but I had lost sight of the fact that the discussion was about a specific 1970 I don't think the marketplace gives a rat's tootie about the larger headstock until we start a rumor that the larger headstock makes the bass neck dive and virtually unplayable :)

I wonder if that explains the problem I have with my JS-II. Even with a lead fishing weight in the cavity, the neck dive is annoying.
 

twocorgis

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I wonder if that explains the problem I have with my JS-II. Even with a lead fishing weight in the cavity, the neck dive is annoying.

A big help there would be a set of Hipshot Ultralite tuners. The neck dive on my Casady bass was really annoying until the Hipshot mods (did a Supertone bridge too, which adds mass to the body), but the tuners alone helped significantly. Las I looked, they were $79 shipped from Musician's Friend, and worth every penny IMHO.

On another note, I tried Greenie in the Casady case last night at the studio as I had both of them there, and it was a good fit with the exception of the massive amount of room left over around the headstock, which even is there to a somewhat lesser extent when the long scale Casady bass is in it. I still have no idea why Epiphone had TKL make that case so long.
 

Happy Face

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A big help there would be a set of Hipshot Ultralite tuners. The neck dive on my Casady bass was really annoying until the Hipshot mods (did a Supertone bridge too, which adds mass to the body), but the tuners alone helped significantly. Las I looked, they were $79 shipped from Musician's Friend, and worth every penny IMHO.

Sorry, are they the 3/8th or 1/2 inch tuners? I am assuming the 3/8th inch?

Thanks!
 
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