Is my X-330 guitar a 1953?

[Asteri2]

"Not much to add in the way of knowledge as it appears you got more then plenty of that sent your way by the highly informed folks here at LTG. I will just say welcome and that is a gorgeous guit. They re-finished it nicely. Looks like it possibly has a new life.. Very cool. Not sure anyone asked, but if you have any files of her recorded we love to hear them.. Soundcloud is a great way to share audio on this forum. "

Thanks D30Man!
Good idea. I have about 90 or so (?) songs on SoundCloud now. I think only one has the X-330 on it so far but, I want to record a chord/melody solo on it, so it's tone is all you hear. I have the song all written...I just have to get better at the hard part! ( Need to write easier songs ☺).

It takes me awhile to get a solo recording done but, I will post a link when I do. I was in a coma for awhile and never came back 100% as a guitarist but, I can put together something bearable. ☺☺♪♪♪

The guitar has a strong acoustic component to the sound. With the wooden bridge and a very microphonic Franz pickup, it is great for jazzy comping. On the right tune, it makes a good solo instrument too. It really excels on the treble strings in the upper positions. A very warm, sweet and clear tone there. (As good as any guitar I have owned.)

Bueno

 

[Asteri2]

Absolutely you should! It's a very special guitar and we all enjoy playing history detectives! Thanks so much for sharing the pictures and stories you knew so far with us!
Ralf

Peace, out! ♪♪♪

 

[Asteri2]

"According to Hans' book page 12 that picture was taken already in the Hoboken plant. Means after 1956."
Ralf


Oh, oh....

 

[Asteri2]

I have the bridge (from the sixties at least)...in the case with the worn out tuners and old pots and frets.

Cheers, amigo.

 

[hansmoust]

According to Hans' book page 12 that picture was taken already in the Hoboken plant. Means after 1956.

.....and if you look closely, you should also notice that the necks on top of the machine have the center-raised headstock type, which means 1963 or later!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[Asteri2]

Thanks AGAIN, Hans!

 

[SFIV1967]

.....and if you look closely, you should also notice that the necks on top of the machine have the center-raised headstock type, which means 1963 or later!

Ha! Sometimes the obvious is overlooked! Right, those headstock shapes did not exist before the 60ies!
Ralf

 

[Asteri2]

Still wondering how other 1953 guitars have the "Later" logo.

Ha! Sometimes the obvious is overlooked! Right, those headstock shapes did not exist before the 60ies!
Ralf

https://www.facebook.com/New-Hope-Guitar-Traders-128120200583775/

What is strange about the logo though, is that the second Guild ever made (An X-330 like mine) ( refinished ) is at New Hope Guitar Traders and you can see in their FaceBook video of the guitar ...the same Peghead inlay that mine has. Oh, well maybe I am hallucinating now. ☺

There is another 1953 X-440 S/N 1055 ? or something like that ? online too with the same "Later" logo. It's been routed for HB PU. You can yahoo or google it...it's on Music Zoo.

That link may not work from this site but, you can find it on Facebook...New Hope Guitar Traders. The link above gets shortened here. At the end It should be, /New-Hope-Guitar-Traders-128120200583775/

I also have screenshots and pics of the guitars above on Flickr galanos.asteri Asteri galanos Search : "People"

 

[SFIV1967]

the second Guild ever made (An X-330 like mine) ( refinished )...the same Peghead inlay that mine has.

No, believe us, it's different. And don't see our explanations as picking on you, we just try to help understanding the fine differences.
Hans book page 23-27 shows most of those differences.

But using that 1954 X-440 picture you mentioned from Musiczoo, it's a very good example to explain:
It shows the second generation logo already.
The one Mark Dronge has and the one Jay Pilzer have should have the first generation logo where that triangle under GUILD is still connected, so it is a one piece logo.
On that second generation logo the triangle got separated already, so it is a two piece logo, Hans wrote later it was even a 6 piece logo where all 5 letters were separated as well.
Now also note the exact positions of the G shield and the GUILD logo versus the machine heads.
Also check how different the G shield logo is:

I also found S/N 1008 (X-440) which is using the first generation logo!
Note the one piece GUILD logo and the two piece G-shield (both different from the above):

And this picture shows a late 1954 F-50 headstock, the G-shield looks similar to your G-shield but the Guild logo is a one piece logo:
https://www.guitarbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/p5_uu4uckxgi_so5.jpg

Now compare the 3 pictures to your guitars logo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/137233865@N07/22181366178/

Your guitar has a totally different GUILD logo that wasn't really used by Guild at all in the 50ties for inlayed work, your guitar has 5 separated letters and a separated angled line below, not a triangle.
All such "angled line" Guild logos starting 1955 were however one single piece Guild logos like the one on that F-50 model.

Also they were usually sitting above the D and G string pegs (like on that F-50), your logo sits between them, which was not done by Guild in that way.

Also the G-shield logo on your guitar is copied from a later version. Your guitar has a one piece G-shield. As you see in the Musiczoo picture above, they used a two piece G-shield at the beginning.

Ralf

 

[Asteri2]

No, believe us, it's different. And don't see our explanations as picking on you, we just try to help understanding the fine differences.
Hans book page 23-27 shows most of those differences.

But using that 1954 X-440 picture you mentioned from Musiczoo, it's a very good example to explain:
It shows the second generation logo already.
The one Mark Dronge has and the one Jay Pilzer have should have the first generation logo where that triangle under GUILD is still connected, so it is a one piece logo.
On that second generation logo the triangle got separated already, so it is a two piece logo, Hans wrote later it was even a 6 piece logo where all 5 letters were separated as well.
Now also note the exact positions of the G shield and the GUILD logo versus the machine heads.
Also check how different the G shield logo is:

I also found S/N 1008 (X-440) which is using the first generation logo!
Note the one piece GUILD logo and the two piece G-shield (both different from the above):

And this picture shows a late 1954 F-50 headstock, the G-shield looks similar to your G-shield but the Guild logo is a one piece logo:
https://www.guitarbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/p5_uu4uckxgi_so5.jpg

Now compare the 3 pictures to your guitars logo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/137233865@N07/22181366178/

Your guitar has a totally different GUILD logo that wasn't really used by Guild at all in the 50ties for inlayed work, your guitar has 5 separated letters and a separated angled line below, not a triangle.
All such "angled line" Guild logos starting 1955 were however one single piece Guild logos like the one on that F-50 model.

Also they were usually sitting above the D and G string pegs (like on that F-50), your logo sits between them, which was not done by Guild in that way.

Also the G-shield logo on your guitar is copied from a later version. Your guitar has a one piece G-shield. As you see in the Musiczoo picture above, they used a two piece G-shield at the beginning.

Ralf

Thanks, Ralf!
I don't feel "picked on" at all (and can handle it if I was!) Also, I really very much appreciate all the comments and thoughts from everyone about my guitar. It's been fun for me!

I enjoyed hearing the great passion and love everybody has for Guild guitars (Old and new). Music and guitars are a wonderful thing...

Peace y'all,
AG

 

[gilded]

So, Asteri, my man, my Texas Bastrop Brother, would you please tell me what those extra two letters on the label are? No one has commented on them, so I'd like to re-ask the question!

Do they have periods after each letter? Does the handwriting on the extra two letters look like the writing on the rest of the label?

An enquiring mind wants to know! gilded

 

[Asteri2]

So, Asteri, my man, my Texas Bastrop Brother, would you please tell me what those extra two letters on the label are? No one has commented on them, so I'd like to re-ask the question!

Do they have periods after each letter? Does the handwriting on the extra two letters look like the writing on the rest of the label?

An enquiring mind wants to know! gilded

I did mention that to the experts here, I believe. Nobody commented. Maybe it is not on other labels and just a person's initials. It's the same ink and size as the rest of it though. There are periods after each letter (G.P.) The G could be a 6 but, a dot after a number would be strange.

It's fun to speculate though...there is also some faint and faded handwriting to the side that I cannot possibly photograph. It is really hard to see but, I am assuming it says, Made for "Elvis Presley" or something like that...:smilet-digitalpoint.

There is something else written inside somewhere. I can't remember where. On the neck or tail block maybe. (?) Someday I will get a bore scope and see what it was. I may have it in my notes somewhere too. That will be for another day. It probably says, " Ha Ha, made ya look!"

Our house burned to the ground in the big Bastrop wildfire...now I see another big fire burned even more. Sad to see. I miss Texas and Texans. Good people. I miss going out to Midland and Odessa, Fort Stockton and talking with those folks. "Salt of the earth" people. Give you the shirt of their back.

Cheers amigo,

 

[SFIV1967]

Nobody commented.

Could be all kind of possibilities what G.P. means on that label. Without seeing the guitar in person it would be all speculation I guess. Kim Keller could have left some remarks on the top inside, whoever did work on it in the 60ies could have left remarks. And even the guitar in 1953 could have been for somebody or made by somebody special, who knows...Usually if a good luthier changes something he would mark the inside of the guitar with information for a future buyer or luthier.
Ralf

 

[gilded]

I thought it said G.P., I just couldn't make it out well enough. Maybe somebody's initials, like the final inspector or the person who ordered it, like early Guild endorser Giovanni Paladino [I kid, I kid, I just made the name up!]

Maybe a bit of manufacturing nomenclature that wasn't used for very long:

For example, some of the early Guild arch-top guitars were non-cut bodies, right? So, if they felt the need to memorialize the difference between cutaway body and non-cutaway body, what would they do? How about do what Gibson did? Gibson used to add the letter P as a suffix to the usual model number when they first made cutaway guitars; L-5P, L-12P, etc. They did it before the war and they did it briefly after the war, into the late '40's. And Epiphone actually called their cutaway bodies Regents, just like they called their electric guitars Zephyrs; Zephyr Deluxe Regent for an electric, cutaway-bodied Deluxe. Some of the old Epi workers went to Guild. Maybe they took some of their previously established ways with them?

Does 'G.P.' stand for Guild Premier, or Guitar Premier? What do you good folk think?

gilded

 

[Asteri2]

I thought it said G.P., I just couldn't make it out well enough. Maybe somebody's initials, like the final inspector or the person who ordered it, like early Guild endorser Giovanni Paladino [I kid, I kid, I just made the name up!]

Maybe a bit of manufacturing nomenclature that wasn't used for very long:

For example, some of the early Guild arch-top guitars were non-cut bodies, right? So, if they felt the need to memorialize the difference between cutaway body and non-cutaway body, what would they do? How about do what Gibson did? Gibson used to add the letter P as a suffix to the usual model number when they first made cutaway guitars; L-5P, L-12P, etc. They did it before the war and they did it briefly after the war, into the late '40's. And Epiphone actually called their cutaway bodies Regents, just like they called their electric guitars Zephyrs; Zephyr Deluxe Regent for an electric, cutaway-bodied Deluxe. Some of the old Epi workers went to Guild. Maybe they took some of their previously established ways with them?

Does 'G.P.' stand for Guild Premier, or Guitar Premier? What do you good folk think?

gilded

I loved Paladino's "Concert By The Sea" Album! That man could really make a guitar sing! I choose to think it means "Great Picker".

Off to play my 6122-1959 now. I am cheating on the Guild. Shh...☺

Thanks man,
AG

 

[gilded]

Asteri and company, I thought about 3 other things, the label, the potentiometer dates and the old tuners.

Label: Go to Asteri's flickr.com account and look at the label. It certainly appears to be the 5-line text version that Hans talks about on page 28 of his book, but did not have a photograph of at the time of publication. The second variation, introduced at the end of '54, has smaller text with only 4 lines of text and an early NYC zip code of 7 for Pearl Street, instead of 3 for 220 Fourth Avenue.

So Asteri, what does your label say at the bottom, New York 3, N.Y. or New York 7, N.Y.?

Here's the link again: https://www.flickr.com/photos/137233865@N07/

Potetiometer dates: A-man, go dig your potentiometers out of the case and send us all of the code and date designations. It will look something like this: 304552. If it does, the first 3 numbers will be the EIA code for the manufacturer, the second 2 will be the week of manufacture, the last 2 will be the year. So, 304/45/52 would be made by Stackpole, in the 45th week of 1952. If there are no date codes, the pots were made before 1951 or so (approximate). We can also tell if the pots you have were from a later time period than the early '50's, which would suggest that somebody replaced them before you and your friend got the guitar (it happens).

Tuners:
The tuners I remember seeing on the 'old-old' Guilds have always been Klusons. Hans seems to agree with this on page 40 of his book. Look at your old tuners and tell us what they say. You'll see things like 'Kluson', 'Kluson Deluxe', Pat no. xxxx, Patent applied for, etc. Sometimes the tuner shaft will stick out of the case on the 'inside' of the cover, sometimes it won't. All of this information can be used to figure out if your tuners are likely to be 'original' to the guitar.

Go online to this collector's web-site for vintage guitars. The link will provide information about Gibson and Gibson parts, but don't worry about that. Scroll halfway down until you reach the section on Tuners. The very first topic will provide you an education in how Kluson tuners can be dated accurately.

Have fun and please share the results with your fancy internet friends!
http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#specs

 

[SFIV1967]

So Asteri, what does your label say at the bottom, New York 3, N.Y. or New York 7, N.Y.?

See very first post in this thread...
Ralf

 

[gilded]

You are right, Ralf. I missed it. I even scanned back through all of the pages and missed it! So much for my 62-year old eyesight, eh? I never really understood Dyslexia until I had laser surgery on my retina 7 years ago. Apparently, those four tears didn't stitch together as smoothly as they could have. And that's my good eye!

Would you mind proof-reading the next 40 page legal contract I receive?

Hey, Ralf, I do have one question for you. I wound up with a '65 Hofner Beatle Bass that has a decal on the headstock from a now defunct music store in Giessen, named Kuhlwetter. I know that's Giessen is in the State of Hesse, I know where Bavaria is, but I don't know where your are! Question, did you ever happen upon this music store in your travels?

I did a google search, but the only thing I know about the store is that they rented Elvis a piano in '59 or '60. Elvis kept it in the suite of rooms he rented at a local hotel for his family and friends in when he was assigned overseas. Here's a pic of the decal and the Hofner......

 

[Asteri2]

Asteri and company, I thought about 3 other things, the label, the potentiometer dates and the old tuners.

Label: Go to Asteri's flickr.com account and look at the label. It certainly appears to be the 5-line text version that Hans talks about on page 28 of his book, but did not have a photograph of at the time of publication. The second variation, introduced at the end of '54, has smaller text with only 4 lines of text and an early NYC zip code of 7 for Pearl Street, instead of 3 for 220 Fourth Avenue.

So Asteri, what does your label say at the bottom, New York 3, N.Y. or New York 7, N.Y.?

Here's the link again: https://www.flickr.com/photos/137233865@N07/

Potetiometer dates: A-man, go dig your potentiometers out of the case and send us all of the code and date designations. It will look something like this: 304552. If it does, the first 3 numbers will be the EIA code for the manufacturer, the second 2 will be the week of manufacture, the last 2 will be the year. So, 304/45/52 would be made by Stackpole, in the 45th week of 1952. If there are no date codes, the pots were made before 1951 or so (approximate). We can also tell if the pots you have were from a later time period than the early '50's, which would suggest that somebody replaced them before you and your friend got the guitar (it happens).

Tuners:
The tuners I remember seeing on the 'old-old' Guilds have always been Klusons. Hans seems to agree with this on page 40 of his book. Look at your old tuners and tell us what they say. You'll see things like 'Kluson', 'Kluson Deluxe', Pat no. xxxx, Patent applied for, etc. Sometimes the tuner shaft will stick out of the case on the 'inside' of the cover, sometimes it won't. All of this information can be used to figure out if your tuners are likely to be 'original' to the guitar.

Go online to this collector's web-site for vintage guitars. The link will provide information about Gibson and Gibson parts, but don't worry about that. Scroll halfway down until you reach the section on Tuners. The very first topic will provide you an education in how Kluson tuners can be dated accurately.

Have fun and please share the results with your fancy internet friends!
http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson.html#specs

Thanks for the info, amigo...

The label is NY3. The klusons match the 53-56 style with Pat Applied 2356766. It says onsite they took the name off in early 52.

The pots have bits of numbers on the side but, are too rusted to read. ( Can't tell 8 from 3 from 6) I suspect they would have been replaced before. ( Maybe by me in the eighties I had it in my shop for years back then.)

The caps are old Industrial Condenser Corporation ( PT-201, .05 mfd, 200 V.D.C. ) and Grey Tiger ( GT16DS, .005 MFD, 1600VDC ) You know, the ones with wax and foil.

Thanks I had fun checking those details. I like old stuff! I should, I am older than the guitar!☺

Thanks again to everybody else too!

Also I found a letter in the case that I forgot about,

It's from Jay Pilzer. ( A collector guy at New Hope ) Who saw the guitar in photos. He says it is a late 53 from when Guild was "getting it's model line defined". he said that the first two Guilds were X-330's and later they kinda became the X-150.

 

[SFIV1967]

Would you mind proof-reading the next 40 page legal contract I receive?

Absolutely! That's part of my work I do actually! And I mean I proof read US contracts, not only German contracts.

Question, did you ever happen upon this music store in your travels? I did a google search, but the only thing I know about the store is that they rented Elvis a piano in '59 or '60. Elvis kept it in the suite of rooms he rented at a local hotel for his family and friends in when he was assigned overseas. Here's a pic of the decal and the Hofner......

I live near Munich, so it's about 500km away. No, I never heard about that Musikhaus Kühlwetter there, they probably closed quite some time ago. Also since there are no Internet search results except on ebay when people sold such instruments, I believe they closed probably 30 years ago or so, long before the internet. I have however sent a quick e-mail to the business that is in the building today, so I will let you know what (if) they tell me.
Ralf