Strongly agree with chillydog's post. The jumbo 12s are different to play than dreads & it's not just the neck. My '79 F412 is the most amazing 12 I've ever played or heard, just extraordinary. But it's also one of the heaviest acoustics I've ever played, too. Neck, body size, and heft make a difference, so it's absolutely critical to at least try a model before thinking about snagging one.
Introduction and question about where to hear the new 12's
- Thread starter devellis
- Start date
+1 on this! They handle mainly high end instruments and a select few affordable solid wood guitars like the GAD line. I have tried some nice Martins and American Guilds there. While I have not tried their F-512, I can vouch that they treat their guitars with great care. If you get a guitar from them, they will make sure it is the one you want.EddieZ said:
devellis
Member
Thanks for all the input, guys. Steve, you've raised excellent points.
Regarding the dual truss rods, I have an unsubstantiated theory. Frankly, dual truss rods have always struck me as potential trouble for the manufacturer. I can imagine people screwing around with those rods in ways that would cause the neck to twist and then expecting the manufacturer to put things right. I completely agree with Chazmo that neck resets are more often caused by changes in body geometry that tilt the neck block forward, rather than the neck bowing forward. Top bracing probably plays a bigger part than the truss rod. So, my theory is that two rods may not really be necessary but might resulting in owner tinkering that causes more problems than it solves. Some manufacturers go to pains to use truss rods that discourage user adjustment (like adjustment through the sound hole or necessity of using specialized tools at the headstock end). I think fear of unintentional harm is part of the reason.
Thanks for pointing out the in-stock F512. I won't be in a position to pounce for several more months but it's still nice to see one actually in a dealer's inventory. If price discussions are appropriate, how does that price look relative to what can be expected as far as discounts go? Different companies vary widely with some (like Martin) available at 40% off of MSRP and others (like boutique builders) rarely exceeding more than 10% below MSRP. Is there a sense of what's possible with Guilds? While I'm not going to sweat paying a modest amount more to a good dealer who will provide excellent service before and after the sale, I also don't want to pay more than I need to for a guitar, naturally.
I've thought about buying used, but I worry even more about buying used without hands-on inspection than buying new. 12-strings have a whole lot of stress on them and there seem to be lots of possibilities for the development of structural issues. Granted, Guild builds more robust 12s than just about anybody but I'd still worry about how an older 12-string was holding up unless I had a chance to check it out very carefully. Back in the late sixties (I'll totally cop to the geezer-hood inference), I didn't necessarily know how to take care of my 12-string and I assume that such possibilities might apply to others, as well (and may even be a reason for selling). I do like the idea of trying to find one that another member could check out and vouch for. Although I'm new to this group, I've lurked a bit prior to joining and, frankly, I'm impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to help each other out that I've witnessed. Good folks here. I'd certainly be strongly influenced by another member's endorsement. In fact, I sort of had the same idea, thinking if an F-512 showed up at a dealership when I had the resources ready, I'd ask if anyone was close enough to check it out. I hadn't thought of doing the same thing with a used instrument but it makes excellent sense. I've bought both used and new instruments in the past and, under the right conditions, I'm amenable to going down either road.
Observations about the feel and size of a Guild jumbo are valid, for sure. I've played just a few and not for all that long. But my initial impression was that, despite their girth, the tighter waist actually made them more comfortable to me than a dreadnought. Also, I play sitting down virtually always, so the weight is less of an issue on the knee than on the neck and shoulder. Besides, my National Style O weighs a ton and, so far, I've been able to manage it (although not for super-long stretches). I'll definitely try to get my arms around some other 17" Guilds if I have a chance, just to be sure that the size isn't an issue. Good advice, once again.
So, to wrap up this long post, thanks, all, for a lot of excellent input. Steve, it's nice to know I'm not alone in my quest. As with others, you've provided some excellent insights. I hope a time will come when I can reciprocate and be of help to you folks. I'll keep you updated as the process unfolds.
Regarding the dual truss rods, I have an unsubstantiated theory. Frankly, dual truss rods have always struck me as potential trouble for the manufacturer. I can imagine people screwing around with those rods in ways that would cause the neck to twist and then expecting the manufacturer to put things right. I completely agree with Chazmo that neck resets are more often caused by changes in body geometry that tilt the neck block forward, rather than the neck bowing forward. Top bracing probably plays a bigger part than the truss rod. So, my theory is that two rods may not really be necessary but might resulting in owner tinkering that causes more problems than it solves. Some manufacturers go to pains to use truss rods that discourage user adjustment (like adjustment through the sound hole or necessity of using specialized tools at the headstock end). I think fear of unintentional harm is part of the reason.
Thanks for pointing out the in-stock F512. I won't be in a position to pounce for several more months but it's still nice to see one actually in a dealer's inventory. If price discussions are appropriate, how does that price look relative to what can be expected as far as discounts go? Different companies vary widely with some (like Martin) available at 40% off of MSRP and others (like boutique builders) rarely exceeding more than 10% below MSRP. Is there a sense of what's possible with Guilds? While I'm not going to sweat paying a modest amount more to a good dealer who will provide excellent service before and after the sale, I also don't want to pay more than I need to for a guitar, naturally.
I've thought about buying used, but I worry even more about buying used without hands-on inspection than buying new. 12-strings have a whole lot of stress on them and there seem to be lots of possibilities for the development of structural issues. Granted, Guild builds more robust 12s than just about anybody but I'd still worry about how an older 12-string was holding up unless I had a chance to check it out very carefully. Back in the late sixties (I'll totally cop to the geezer-hood inference), I didn't necessarily know how to take care of my 12-string and I assume that such possibilities might apply to others, as well (and may even be a reason for selling). I do like the idea of trying to find one that another member could check out and vouch for. Although I'm new to this group, I've lurked a bit prior to joining and, frankly, I'm impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to help each other out that I've witnessed. Good folks here. I'd certainly be strongly influenced by another member's endorsement. In fact, I sort of had the same idea, thinking if an F-512 showed up at a dealership when I had the resources ready, I'd ask if anyone was close enough to check it out. I hadn't thought of doing the same thing with a used instrument but it makes excellent sense. I've bought both used and new instruments in the past and, under the right conditions, I'm amenable to going down either road.
Observations about the feel and size of a Guild jumbo are valid, for sure. I've played just a few and not for all that long. But my initial impression was that, despite their girth, the tighter waist actually made them more comfortable to me than a dreadnought. Also, I play sitting down virtually always, so the weight is less of an issue on the knee than on the neck and shoulder. Besides, my National Style O weighs a ton and, so far, I've been able to manage it (although not for super-long stretches). I'll definitely try to get my arms around some other 17" Guilds if I have a chance, just to be sure that the size isn't an issue. Good advice, once again.
So, to wrap up this long post, thanks, all, for a lot of excellent input. Steve, it's nice to know I'm not alone in my quest. As with others, you've provided some excellent insights. I hope a time will come when I can reciprocate and be of help to you folks. I'll keep you updated as the process unfolds.