Introduction and question about where to hear the new 12's

devellis

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Well, my account became active, so I wanted to introduce myself to you fine folks. I recognize some of you from other forums, such as AGF.

By way of background, I played a bit of guitar back in the 60's then pretty much gave up on guitar until about 2 years ago. The first guitar I bought was a Wurlitzer 12-string dread that was my companion through college. It was under a hundred bucks new and kind of a strange beast. In some respects, it was a fairly decent guitar and, in others, a piece of junk. It spent decades, literally, under a bed until I gave it to the son of a friend who is a good guitar player and wanted a 12-string to experiment with.

After college, I was lured to other instruments. I've spent time messing with 5-string banjo, concertina and mandolin. While trying to learn a tune on mandolin from a recording done on tenor guitar, I decided to see what it would sound like on guitar. My mandolin playing consisted of flatpicking Irish traditional stuff. Playing this sort of music on guitar is fairly uncommon but I thought I'd give it a go and, to my pleasant surprise, it worked quite well. I was sufficiently inspired to acquire a couple of very nice guitars (a Goodall and a Bourgeois) and merrily went about flatpicking jigs and reels as best I could.

More recently, I've become interested in fingerpicking country-style blues. I swapped a mandolin for a National Style 0, which is set up for slide but also have been doing some fingerpicking on my other guitars. Another mandolin trade got me a really nice Adirondack-over-Macassar Zimnicki guitar. So, presently, I'm enjoying a wealth of guitar riches. But fingerpicking has created a longing for another 12-string. I'm not 100% sold on the idea by any means but it has a certain pull on me. Thinking 12-string, naturally meant thinking Guild. Over the years, I've played a few Guilds and have always admired them. As a native New Englander (born in Massachusetts, living in North Carolina for the past 30 or so years), I encountered them fairly often as a youngster and was always favorably impressed. So, I'm thinking that some time in the spring I might consider getting something like a Guild F-512.

Now the question: It seems very difficult to find places where you can actually try these things out. Although there are a few dealers in North Carolina, most are a pretty good distance and aren't places I've particularly heard of before. Sam Ash in Raleigh is the closest (I'm in Chapel Hill) and none of these places seem to have websites. So, I'm at something of a loss for how to go about informing any decision I make about a Guild 12-string.

I guess my specific questions are:

Where have you purchased new Guild 12s with success (good price and service)? I've seen reference in past threads to dealers in Montana, Worcester, MA, and Madison, WI. Are there other dealers you would recommend?

Are the 12-strings rarities even among Guild dealers? Internet searches seem to indicate a willingness to order one (if they're mentioned at all) far more often than one actually in stock.

Is anyone personally familiar with any dealers in my neck of the woods that is likely to stock Guild 12-strings? I'm guessing this is a long shot.

Are the New Hartford 12-strings sufficiently consistent (or is there enough collective experience to know this?) that a long-distance purchase, with no prior contact with the specific instrument, wouldn't be risky?

I'm giving myself plenty of lead time because this would be an expensive purchase and I'm still not 100% sold on the idea of returning to the 12-string fold. I'd really like to get my hands on something appropriate to help me decide. I've played other 12's, mostly Taylors, and wasn't wowed. I realize that I may be asking for the impossible here but thought I should tap into the extensive collective wisdom here at LTG before going too far or too quickly down this road.

All suggestions and insights will be welcomed.

Thanks,
Bob DeVellis
 
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Hello Bob and Welcome!

Can't help you on locating a new Guild 12, I'm afraid. I do agree that it is hard to find a dealer with a decent inventory of Guilds, on hand. I have a DV-6 that I had to order from a dealer, never saw or played one prior to laying out the cash to order it.

Back to the 12's, LTG member Chazmo may be able to help you. I believe he has played some of the new Guild 12 strings and may be able to offer you some advice.

Best of luck in you quest.

~nw
 

bluesypicky

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Welcome to LTG Bob!
Like NW I can't be much help with dealers in your area.
I have the "reptile" approach as far as guitar purchase, always on the prowl with the local craigslist ads (which is how I lucked out and got my F-212), and always keeping an eye on Ebay which might be the best bet to find a used Guild, problem being you have to accept the risk of buying without touching (again I lucked out on my last DV-52 purchase) but I knew I took the risk of either the guitar not being all it was said to be, or being damaged in shipping which made me a nervous wreck until it got here!!!
Turned out even better than I expected, it is now my favorite dread, (and you can even hear it the "members music" section.....) :wink:
But you are on the right track with Guild, that much I can tell you!!!!! :lol:
 

killdeer43

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Welcome Bob.
I must say that's quite an introductory letter...a veritable chronicle of your personal music-related history! Very impressive.

Cutting right to the 12-string chase, I don't believe you'll beat the sound of a Guild 12, and I know I'm predjudice, but most of us here are just that, because we are Guilded and GASsed.
I've been like bluesy in that I prowl around and find guitars here and there. I just prefer the Westerly products so I'm always on the lookout for those older Guilds. My D4-12 was a pawn shop score and the F-112 I found here.

It's ongoing and fun here 24/7 so stay in touch and something good is bound to happen. :wink:

Take care,
Joe
 

devellis

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Thanks, folks. Chazmo might have guessed I'd turn up here eventually. This forum comes highly recommended and from what I've seen so far, the enthusiasm is well deserved.
 

Qvart

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devellis said:
By way of background, I played a bit of guitar back in the 60's then pretty much gave up on guitar until about 2 years ago.

Uh oh...are we adding to the geezer tally? :lol: ;) :lol:

Just kidding...

Welcome Bob!

I am in no way qualified to speak on the topic of Guild 12'ers. I held one in my hands briefly and couldn't even tell you now what model it was. F-something I think. And I have nothing in my experience to compare it to, but it played and sounded great, so I'd agree you're on the right track. I do have a suggestion you might consider though: Seems like I see a lot Guilds 12-strings for sale around the country pretty much on a daily basis. If you don't have your heart set on a new guitar you might find one for sale in an area of the country where we have an LTG representative who would be willing to inspect the item firsthand and work out the shipping and payment details.

Something to keep in mind.

Good luck with your search!
-Geoff
(broadcasting from the other side of NC)
 

evenkeel

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From another (relative) newbie, wecome to the gang. :D :D
 

Treem

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Welcome Aboard Bob!!! :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8)
 

12 string

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Howdy from another LTG/AGFer!

How far is your NC home from Sevierville TN? There is a store there called Music Outlet (musicoutlet.net) which has a huge inventory of major makes and models as well as an amazing stock of limiteds, specials and one-offs. Their pricing is in the wholesale range. You could spend a whole weekend there and barely scratch the surface.

Happy hunting!

' Strang
 

Qvart

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12 string said:
Howdy from another LTG/AGFer!

How far is your NC home from Sevierville TN? There is a store there called Music Outlet (musicoutlet.net) which has a huge inventory of major makes and models as well as an amazing stock of limiteds, specials and one-offs. Their pricing is in the wholesale range. You could spend a whole weekend there and barely scratch the surface.

Happy hunting!

' Strang

That's up by Gatlingburg. Didn't know about that place. It's doable for me but probably at least 5 hoursfrom Chapel Hill.
 

GardMan

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Welcome to the asylum! I can't help you with 12-stings. I have enough trouble playing six. D
 
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Hi Bob and other Forum Members:

I'm an even newer newbie just joined this week - in advance of a potential purchase. I've been having the same challenge as Bob in finding a local dealer that carries any selection of 12 strings, no less ones in the price range of the F-512s, and zero have had the F-512 or even its cousin the F-412.

My impetus is my no-name 12 string from quite a number of years ago was brought back into service after a long rest, but after a couple years, it is needing a neck reset and is just not worth repairing. Thus, with a few more bucks at my disposal then back then, I have been looking at replacement 12 strings and really liked the F-512 after listening to and briefly playing a Westerly version this past summer. I've only been able to try out a Taylor 655C which had a great action but not the same breadth of tone the Guild had. Tomorrow I'll look at a Martin D12-28.

I've also noticed that the New Haven CT F-4/512s seem to have two design changes from their Corona and earlier versions: they are using the open style plate tuners like on the F-212s rather than the mini Grovers, and there appears to be a single truss rod rather than the dual setup (note the narrow cover on the head). The read the dual truss rod system has been praised as rock stable over decades of manufacture and use - key for a 12 string. It's unclear what kind of track record the single rod will have. This has caused me to seek further insight of those more familiar with Guilds here on the list who might have some insight as to how beefy the new rod is compared to the old design.

On the plus side, the shops of New York City are under 90 minutes away from me, so I may have to spend a day running around "the city" comparing new and used versions.

Speaking of used, and at the possible risk of a factory jousting session, is there really a noticeable difference in these guitars between the Westerly, and Corona/Tacoma versions? And outside of the visual differences, how do the (US made) JF series stack up to the F-4/512s? They seem to run a bit less expensive on the used market than a F-4/512.

Many thanks for any insight you may be able to provide. I'll keep the forum posted as to any NYC trip results over the coming weeks.

- Steve
 

chazmo

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dpaks51 said:
Hi Bob and other Forum Members:

I'm an even newer newbie just joined this week - in advance of a potential purchase. I've been having the same challenge as Bob in finding a local dealer that carries any selection of 12 strings, no less ones in the price range of the F-512s, and zero have had the F-512 or even its cousin the F-412.

My impetus is my no-name 12 string from quite a number of years ago was brought back into service after a long rest, but after a couple years, it is needing a neck reset and is just not worth repairing. Thus, with a few more bucks at my disposal then back then, I have been looking at replacement 12 strings and really liked the F-512 after listening to and briefly playing a Westerly version this past summer. I've only been able to try out a Taylor 655C which had a great action but not the same breadth of tone the Guild had. Tomorrow I'll look at a Martin D12-28.

I've also noticed that the New Haven CT F-4/512s seem to have two design changes from their Corona and earlier versions: they are using the open style plate tuners like on the F-212s rather than the mini Grovers, and there appears to be a single truss rod rather than the dual setup (note the narrow cover on the head). The read the dual truss rod system has been praised as rock stable over decades of manufacture and use - key for a 12 string. It's unclear what kind of track record the single rod will have. This has caused me to seek further insight of those more familiar with Guilds here on the list who might have some insight as to how beefy the new rod is compared to the old design.

On the plus side, the shops of New York City are under 90 minutes away from me, so I may have to spend a day running around "the city" comparing new and used versions.

Speaking of used, and at the possible risk of a factory jousting session, is there really a noticeable difference in these guitars between the Westerly, and Corona/Tacoma versions? And outside of the visual differences, how do the (US made) JF series stack up to the F-4/512s? They seem to run a bit less expensive on the used market than a F-4/512.

Many thanks for any insight you may be able to provide. I'll keep the forum posted as to any NYC trip results over the coming weeks.

- Steve

Steve,

Welcome aboard! You are asking excelllent, informed questions. I doubt anyone here has the answers about the effectiveness of the new truss rod. They have indeed switched to a central rod flanked by two fixed carbon rods. I imagine this will do just fine, but it does break with a long, well-earned, successful run of dual rods. In fact, the transition occurred before the move to New Hartford this year; it was started in late 2007 at the Tacoma facility.

If I understand this right, even with really strong trussing to keep the neck straight from the body, there's still a problem where the necks pull forward and the geometry changes where the neck meets the body. The neck block essentially moves over time as the guitar is subjected to humidity changes and either dries out or gets hot/cold, or whatever... The end result is that good trussing doesn't stop you from needing a neck reset as a guitar gets old. Plus, just about every other manufacturer, including Martin, uses a single rod. If someone can invent a system to keep the entire fingerboard level aligned over the years, that would be worth looking at!

I've not owned a JF-55 or -65 or the 12-string versions, but two comments. Technically speaking, other than the mid-run addition of an abalone soundring in the JFs, I think these guitars differ in name only from the F-50(R) ancestors and successors. There were subtle changes in other things in these G-shielded jumbos over the years, including going from shaved to scalloped bracing and going from three to two lower bout cross braces, but I don't think that has anything to do with the model name change. I think the reason the JFs sell for less is because everyone who knows Guilds knows what an F-50 is. JFs on the other hand suffer from the obscuring of the model name. I think it's as simple as that.

Steve and Bob, you should consider joining us for the factory tour in April (see the members-only section). If things go well, you'll have ample opportunity to bang away on a few of these. :)
 

bunuel

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I'd very strongly recommend searching out a used Westerly made 12 string for several reasons:

First, buying used is always cheaper than buying new.

Older westerly's will keep their value (or appreciate).

Older, used guitars sound better in general, Guild's included.

Better woods were more widely & easily available in past decades than is the current case.

Hard to beat a Westerly 12. They might have made a dog or 2, but I certainly haven't heard or played them & I've probably played about 50 of various models. The Westerly factory made extraordinarily consistently amazing 12 strings.

Of course, if buying used, it is important to keep an eye out for potential problems due to age, maintenance oversights, etc. But those are really minor hazards compared with the often lackluster & uneven quality of modern acoustics, except at the very highest price point. Buying new, especially from an unproven factory, is always a crapshoot.

G'luck in yr tone search.
 
G

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Steve, as an avid 12-stringer I highly endorse the Guild line, and have a few observations for you. I currently own a '66 F212 and a Westerly JF30-12, have previously owned a '73 F212XL and a number of other 12's by Martin, Larrivee, Alvarez, Ibanez, etc. The JF30-12 is very similar in size/playability to the F512, just different wood type for the back and sides plus cosmetics. My JF30-12 plays and sounds fabulous (flamed maple back/sides rather than the rosewood of the F512) but if you've never played a Guild Jumbo 12 you should seek one out before buying online. These things are built like tanks, but are a handful to play if you're used to a slim 6-string neck. The necks are large and bulky and take some time to get used to. The '66 F212 (as opposed to an F212XL) has a smaller, more comfortable body size and an easier neck to play. Thats the one i pick up to just practice, I use the JF30-12 live because it handles the capo much better in regard to holding tune. I love the Jumbo, but it takes some getting used to, it's a much larger neck than any other 12-string i've played. Sounds like heaven, the intonation up and down the neck is spot-on, and structurally it hasn't budged an iota in over 20 years. The martin was a disappointment, the Larrivee was very nice, i just wasn't as impressed with the tone as the Guilds. Hope this helps.
 
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