D40 Trad. vs D40 Standard vs GAD40ce

twocorgis

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adorshki said:
twocorgis said:
My Bourgeois Slope D and the D18DC are probably the two best guitars I've ever played (and in that order). I swore I'd never buy another Martin after that clunker '76 D28 I owned and got rid of years ago. Never say never... 8)
Didn't you have a D50 once? :p

I sure did/do Al. As luck would have it, Bruce isn't in in Nashville this week, so I won't hear anything until he comes back I guess. One of these days/weeks/months/years. :roll:

I just hope I still like it when it comes back. :shock:
 

adorshki

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twocorgis said:
adorshki said:
Didn't you have a D50 once? :p
I sure did/do Al. As luck would have it, Bruce isn't in in Nashville this week, so I won't hear anything until he comes back I guess. One of these days/weeks/months/years. :roll:
I just hope I still like it when it comes back. :shock:
Now THAT'S depressing... :(
 

fronobulax

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adorshki said:
Now, can anybody actually hear the difference, even assuming two completely identical guitars COULD be built?
Seems to me that the folks who are trying to explain why a Stradivarius made instrument sounds the way it does (and then reproduce that sound using modern materials where possible) might have some answers. Lots of research into trying to recreate the varnish. I personally have heard tone differences in the same brass instrument, before and after refinishing, so I have to believe that, in general, the finish - be it nitro or poly - can effect the tone. However I also expect that 90% of the population cannot or will not hear the difference. I furthermore suspect that much of the debate is conducted by people whose only measuring instruments are their ears :wink:
 

adorshki

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fronobulax said:
adorshki said:
Now, can anybody actually hear the difference, even assuming two completely identical guitars COULD be built?
Seems to me that the folks who are trying to explain why a Stradivarius made instrument sounds the way it does (and then reproduce that sound using modern materials where possible) might have some answers. Lots of research into trying to recreate the varnish.
Yes. We discussed some of those issues here before regarding wood aging ("opening up") and it's also thought that Stradivar soaked his wood in brine (for years) which helped crystallize the resins resulting in a more resonant buiilding material. The secret of his varnishes was thought to be calcium from shellfish. Made the varnish harder (more resonant).
fronobulax said:
I personally have heard tone differences in the same brass instrument, before and after refinishing, so I have to believe that, in general, the finish - be it nitro or poly - can effect the tone. However I also expect that 90% of the population cannot or will not hear the difference. I furthermore suspect that much of the debate is conducted by people whose only measuring instruments are their ears :wink:
I agree,
and I think the top will be dampened somewhat by poly, but I was splitting hairs about no two pieces of wood being alike. I'm thinking the only way to prove a difference in tone quality would be to finish two pieces of (the same kind) of wood differently, subject 'em to the same frequency(s), and use a transducer to measure resonance amplitude through the finish. Since no two pieces of wood are the same, technically you could never actually construct a truly "all things equal except the finish" comparison. But as I said it is kind of splitting hairs.
 

devellis

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Whenever I've A-B'd the same model new guitar in red spruce and Sitka spruce, I've preferred the Sitka. Most of the time, I had no idea which was which initially, preferred one over the other, and then realized that they had different top woods. I have a red-spruce-topped guitar that I bought used, and it sounds great. Of course, I have no idea what it sounded like when new. People often claim that red spruce will open up and surpass Sitka with time. On the one hand, I do believe that guitars do open up. On the other hand, I'd never be able to bring myself to buy the guitar I liked less in the store, on the promise that it would magically transform with time. This isn't a dig at red spruce fans. Like I said, I have one guitar topped with red spruce (and a few mandolins) that I like very much. It may well be that it needs time to loosen up.

As far as finishes go, I've never heard a convincing argument that one is better than another with regard to tone. Most luthiers I've talked to -- many of whom have tried multiple finishes -- say that thickness is the most important factor. Violins usually use a much softer varnish finish than anything you'll find on a factory guitar, hand-applied using a pad in the French polishing method. Older mandolins also use oil-based varnishes. Different finishes definitely have different appearance and wear characteristics. Personally, I think the bragging rights that come with using nitrocellulose aren't worth the hassles. My F-512 does look mighty nice with its nitro skin, but so do other guitars I have with a variety of other finishes. Nitro is easier to repair but some of the modern finishes are inherently tougher and thus perhaps less likely to need repair. Obviously, I wouldn't avoid buying a guitar with nitro -- not in the least. But at the same time, I really don't consider it an advantage of any sort, either. Even if the finish has some influence on tone, it will be dwarfed by numerous other factors that exert a far larger effect -- like choice of picks and strings, not to mention construction methods and wood choices.

I actually feel pretty much the same about dovetail necks as I do about nitro finishes. Yes, they're traditional and, yes, they can function extremely well. But so can other arrangements, including bolt-on necks. I've encountered guitars with removable necks that mate with the body via three metal contact points that sound absolutely fantastic. Again, I've got guitars with dovetail necks and there isn't a thing wrong with them, except perhaps the cost associated with the more intensive labor to get them right and the potential for small errors to creep in. Not knocking dovetails by any means; just saying I don't consider them a big plus just because Martin used them back in the day and, for the most part, continues to do so.

Guild is justly proud of its illustrious history and it makes sense that it should emphasize continuity of design and construction for marketing purposes, if nothing else. So, I don't have a problem with the company's retention of dovetail neck joints and nitrocellulose finishes. But honestly, I don't consider either of those features to be a particular plus, either. I'm sure others will disagree and I don't think there's a right answer here, just a matter of personal opinion. Hope I haven't antagonized anyone. It certainly isn't my intent.
 

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devellis said:
Personally, I think the bragging rights that come with using nitrocellulose aren't worth the hassles. Even if the finish has some influence on tone, it will be dwarfed by numerous other factors that exert a far larger effect -- like choice of picks and strings, not to mention construction methods and wood choices.

Right there with you, Bob, very well stated thoughts and preferences.

I'm a little rough with guitars (wearing them while cooking for instance, or playing outside and setting them down on less than desirable surfaces). I dislike having to worry about dinging or scratching a delicate surface...it's frustrating in the way that old fancy dining room tables with laquer finishes which looked great but sustained a permanent white ring every time someone neglected to use a coaster. It's especially hard to use a guitar on stage and not knock it against something and thereby degrading it. So tonal consderations probably being minimal, and given a choice, I'll take the more durable coating.

Wontox
 

adorshki

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devellis said:
Whenever I've A-B'd the same model new guitar in red spruce and Sitka spruce, I've preferred the Sitka. Most of the time, I had no idea which was which initially, preferred one over the other, and then realized that they had different top woods.
Hope I haven't antagonized anyone. It certainly isn't my intent.
Let's get sumthin' straight right now fella, Ya can't use two diffrent kinds a wood in my experiment! :lol:
Actually, a couple of your observations led me to edit my post a bit to clarify and correct some of my points. :D
 

taabru45

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It's especially hard to use a guitar on stage and not knock it against something and thereby degrading it. So tonal consderations probably being minimal, and given a choice, I'll take the more durable coating.

Wontox[/quote]


You might want to try an epoxy finish..... :roll: :lol: I did hear of a guy doing that, in yellow, to a D28....to save on the cost of a case...seriously....and it was the 60s so it might even have been braz.....that stuff is pretty well permenant...... :evil: Steffan
 

adorshki

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taabru45 said:
Wontox said:
It's especially hard to use a guitar on stage and not knock it against something and thereby degrading it. So tonal consderations probably being minimal, and given a choice, I'll take the more durable coating.
Wontox
You might want to try an epoxy finish..... :roll: :lol: I did hear of a guy doing that, in yellow, to a D28....to save on the cost of a case...seriously....and it was the 60s so it might even have been braz.....that stuff is pretty well permenant...... :evil: Steffan
Anybody see that show with the Peruvian instruments using armadillo shells for the bodies?
No joke...but still... :lol:
 

Scratch

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twocorgis said:
Bill Ashton said:
Last night at Union Music, I had a few minutes to compare these dreads...that is after we cleaned up after a ridiculously happy Chazmo... :lol:

D40 Traditional: The standard against which all others are judged? Well...low boomy bass (that vibrates your chest when you play her), fine, fine workmanship, perhaps a slightly depressed midrange though I could not tell that until I played other guitars. Perhaps a bit too subdued cosmetically with the tortise binding. Nice overlay on the peghead. Felt a bit "tight," but nothing like my D55 did when new, and certainly nothing a hour with a luthier couldn't tame. But sadly, unexceptional. Not sure who would win in a shootout with a Martin D18 (if thats the similar guitar) or a Taylor.

Wow Bill, that could have been written about the D40 Traditional I just sold, minus the boomy bass. I kept thinking that the Adirondack Spruce top was just really tight, but who knows? Mine probably would have beaten an equivalent Taylor, but never a Martin D18. My D18DC was/is so much better you couldn't even call it a horse race. The guy I sold it to loves it, so it goes to show that there's no accounting for taste.

Sandy; I'm confused... Your D40 had an adi top? Must have been a Bluegrass Jubilee? D40 Traditionals (Richie Havens) have Sitka tops...
 

Christopher Cozad

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adorshki said:
taabru45 said:
Wontox said:
...I'll take the more durable coating.
Wontox
You might want to try an epoxy finish..... :roll: :lol: Steffan
Anybody see that show with the Peruvian instruments using armadillo shells for the bodies?
No joke...but still... :lol:
Perhaps we could just string up a sturdy teflon-coated flight case with a photo overlay of Brazilian Rosewood adhered to the front... the Guild TRUNC (Teflon Rosewood Un-Natural Case.

Or maybe the company might consider releasing a 'battle-worthy' edition... Something like the F1A1 Guild 'Abrams' (serving dual purposes of music production AND crowd control).

Oh no, it's Friday already, isn't it? Is thread hijacking more forgiveable if it's the weekend?

:D

Christopher
 

twocorgis

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Scratch said:
twocorgis said:
Wow Bill, that could have been written about the D40 Traditional I just sold, minus the boomy bass. I kept thinking that the Adirondack Spruce top was just really tight, but who knows? Mine probably would have beaten an equivalent Taylor, but never a Martin D18. My D18DC was/is so much better you couldn't even call it a horse race. The guy I sold it to loves it, so it goes to show that there's no accounting for taste.

Sandy; I'm confused... Your D40 had an adi top? Must have been a Bluegrass Jubilee? D40 Traditionals (Richie Havens) have Sitka tops...

Really? I thought the Richie Havens had an Adirondack (Guild calls it "Red"; same thing) top as well, just Fishman electronics instead of the DTAR. I don't think you'll ever see Sitka that looks like this

4911412684_42fe8c03f8_b.jpg


I'm really glad the new owner likes it! 8)
 

Bill Ashton

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So Sandy, you finally did sell her...er..."it?" I clearly missed that thread! :lol:

I was actually hoping to try her when I saw you later this month...

I don't want to know what a Bourgeois or that Martin sounds like...
 

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twocorgis said:
Scratch said:
Sandy; I'm confused... Your D40 had an adi top? Must have been a Bluegrass Jubilee? D40 Traditionals (Richie Havens) have Sitka tops...
Really? I thought the Richie Havens had an Adirondack (Guild calls it "Red"; same thing) top as well, just Fishman electronics instead of the DTAR. I don't think you'll ever see Sitka that looks like this
I'm really glad the new owner likes it! 8)
When I got my (Corona) Richie Havens, Guild wasn't specifying top wood anywhere I saw in print. Extensive reading leads me to believe Adirondack tops were introduced in Tacoma, or at the very least, that's when they started identifying the top wood.
Guild website currently specs Havens signature models as having Sitka and Bluegrass Jubilees as having Adi tops. The Havens signature model always had some cosmetic upgrades beyond the "regular" D40's and originally was available with or without electronics. 8)
 

adorshki

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ccozad said:
Oh no, it's Friday already, isn't it? Is thread hijacking more forgiveable if it's the weekend?
Christopher
Oh no, no "hijacking" allowed around here at all...however somehow the rules against VEERING are never enforced... :lol:
 

twocorgis

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adorshki said:
twocorgis said:
Scratch said:
Sandy; I'm confused... Your D40 had an adi top? Must have been a Bluegrass Jubilee? D40 Traditionals (Richie Havens) have Sitka tops...
Really? I thought the Richie Havens had an Adirondack (Guild calls it "Red"; same thing) top as well, just Fishman electronics instead of the DTAR. I don't think you'll ever see Sitka that looks like this
I'm really glad the new owner likes it! 8)
When I got my (Corona) Richie Havens, Guild wasn't specifying top wood anywhere I saw in print. Extensive reading leads me to believe Adirondack tops were introduced in Tacoma, or at the very least, that's when they started identifying the top wood.
Guild website currently specs Havens signature models as having Sitka and Bluegrass Jubilees as having Adi tops. The Havens signature model always had some cosmetic upgrades beyond the "regular" D40's and originally was available with or without electronics. 8)

Interesting stuff, Al. I'll admit I don't know much of the Richie Havens D40s, so that's great info. If I ever get another D40 I'd get an older one I think. I've gotten to like Sitka tops better than Adi ones anyway, and the silking on nice Sitka is really appealing to me. YMMV and it's all good anyway. 8)
 

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The Guilds of Grot said:
Something that has never made sense to me is the referral to inanimate objects as "he" or mostly "she". I just don't get this! Where does it come from?

I just call my car, boat or guitars "it"! Not this; "she" handles great or; I tried "her" out crap! It totally baffles me! If somebody can supply me with a logical reason I might rethink it, but otherwise, and until then, it will continue to annoy me to no end!

<rant over>

I agree it doesn't make much sense in a modern context; it's a traditional thing that comes from seafarers of centuries ago. In those days, traveling by ship was a very risky thing. Sailors, particularly whalers who literally spent 2-3 years at a time without setting foot on land, were rather attached to the ships that sustained them in an alien environment (as someone else mentioned), and the western tradition of calling ships 'she' developed as a result. That tradition has remained intact in the navies of the western world (I spent 10 years in the US Navy myself), although with women regularly on sea duty now that could be changing. Interestingly, the tradition in the Soviet navy was to call ships 'he'; not sure what the significance of that might be, but perhaps it's related to viewing the ship as a comrade-in-arms. Calling other inanimate objects she is just an extension of the seafaring tradition, whether people using those terms know it or not.
 

adorshki

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twocorgis said:
If I ever get another D40 I'd get an older one I think. I've gotten to like Sitka tops better than Adi ones anyway, and the silking on nice Sitka is really appealing to me. YMMV and it's all good anyway. 8)
All this talk about the tops recently got me playing mine more, and trying to figure out what the top was. I looked at it really closely a couple of weeks ago trying to figure out if the grain was any tighter than the D25's, it could be, maybe.... :lol: And it's got some nice silking like yours.... :lol: And I keep hoping it's still just tight and will open up some more... :lol: But I suspect it's probably just lowly old sitka..... :(
 

twocorgis

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Bill Ashton said:
So Sandy, you finally did sell her...er..."it?" I clearly missed that thread! :lol:

I was actually hoping to try her when I saw you later this month...

The D40 has a new home (and a happy new owner) in Hugetown Tejas, thanks to AGF. Got my (somewhat reduced) price, too. It's a tough crowd out there these days. I've got the Collings on the market now too. I decided I don't need it and the D50 when the D50 comes back, which is hopefully soon. :shock: The D50's a lifer, even if the Collings might be a little better guitar, I don't need another Rosewood dread. I've become kind of a hog guy lately anyway.

Bill Ashton said:
I don't want to know what a Bourgeois or that Martin sounds like...

It's a can of worms Bill, but it's a mighty nice can! :lol:
 

Scratch

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quote]
When I got my (Corona) Richie Havens, Guild wasn't specifying top wood anywhere I saw in print. Extensive reading leads me to believe Adirondack tops were introduced in Tacoma, or at the very least, that's when they started identifying the top wood.
Guild website currently specs Havens signature models as having Sitka and Bluegrass Jubilees as having Adi tops. The Havens signature model always had some cosmetic upgrades beyond the "regular" D40's and originally was available with or without electronics. 8)[/quote]

Interesting stuff, Al. I'll admit I don't know much of the Richie Havens D40s, so that's great info. If I ever get another D40 I'd get an older one I think. I've gotten to like Sitka tops better than Adi ones anyway, and the silking on nice Sitka is really appealing to me. YMMV and it's all good anyway. 8)[/quote]

I agree on the Sitka vs. Adi tops. My 2005 D40 Richie Havens is definitely sitka which I prefer to the Adi top on my D50. Never really heard the term D40 Traditional until this post... Regardless, I'll take a D40 Sitka top any day...
 
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