Buzz Feiten compensated nut

[archtopbob]

Hi,
Is installing the above nut an irreversible move? Can you revert to using the original nut?
Anybody got experience to share please?
-Bob

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

I've met Buzzy and watched him demo the system...and asked a bunch of tech questions :lol: :lol: . It's a tempered tuning system.

The nut is a shelf nut...you could remove it and put a standard nut back in it's place.

You don't say if you are retrofitting an electric or an acoustic guitar.

The tuning offset system is at both ends...the nut and the bridge/saddles.

If you are fitting an electric, you will need the adjustable saddles of your bridge re intonated to his specs.

If you are fitting an acoustic, you will need additional work on the sadde/bridge.

There is quite a bit of info in the FAQ's section of Buzzy's site.

http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/faq.htm

 

[archtopbob]

Thanks GuildFS4612CE,
Just wanted to weigh things up before making a decision.
-Bob

 

[fearless]

Hi, I'll chime in here because I find the idea of compensated nuts very interesting. It seems like a logical improvement and I'm thinking of fitting them to mine.

Earvana also make a compensated nut, and it is a lot cheaper.
The BF system moves the strings forward uniformly, then uses different than usual compensation at the bridge and (so I believe) a specific intonation/tuning process. They use bone nuts.

The Earvana system has been around longer and was actually patented first by Ernie Ball, although used for much longer by luthiers. It compensates each string differently at the nut, which is logical. Tuning and intonation are done the same as normal. Again, improvement can be made by compensating at the bridge also. Easy with an electric, but for an acoustic you'd want to install a compensated saddle for best results.
A disadvantage is that their nuts are high density polymer. Allegedly better than bone, but I doubt it somehow.

There is a guy in UK who hand makes compensated shelf nuts from bone, using the same system as Earvana and Ernie Ball. http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-BONE-COMPENSA ... 1201wt_905

He also makes compensated saddles from bone, ebony etc. for acoustics.

I suspect that Buzz Feiten went with their design to avoid a patent dispute with Ernie Ball, but have still come up with a decent system, even if a little more complicated. To my way of thinking, the Earvana/Ernie Ball system is a more elegant, simple solution to the problem. Ernie Ball recently sued Earvana for patent infringement and won. Earvana is still in business, but now pays a fee to Ernie Ball.

My recommendation would be to go for the Earvana/EB system, just because technically it makes more sense and should, in theory, work better.
Opinions may vary, but that's my two cents worth!
Would be very interested in the results you get from either system.

 

[kakerlak]

Here's the granddaddy of compensated nuts:

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Adding a compensated nut *is* reversible as long as you take the following into consideration:

A Buzz Feiten nut, installed by an authorized luthier will not alter a standard nut slot, so the old nut could be restored. However, it would be an extremely rare situation where one would add a compensated nut alone and intonation would be perfect without also compensating the saddle (and quite possibly needing to re-cut the saddle slot). The accuracy of the Buzz Feiten system is completely dependent upon string gauge, as well. Once set up, you can expect to play notes up and down the fretboard that remain close to (if not) perfect in pitch. If you change string gauges, though, that will no longer be the case, and you would have to have the 'system' re-compensated (hopefully just a slight adjustment). At this point, replacing the compensated nut with a standard, non-compensated nut (why?) would throw the intonation out, and require changes to the saddle (saddle slot) again.

If depressing a string at the first or second fret, plucking it, and immediately cringing as you identify the note to be 5 semi-tones sharp is causing you to lose sleep, mistreat animals, abandon relationships, or worse - not play your Guild - then you may be the perfect candidate for a fully compensated, intonated guitar.

Christopher

 

[fearless]

Here's the granddaddy of compensated nuts:

LOVE IT! This is from the 70s isn't it? Any idea of company and year?

 

[kakerlak]

Here's the granddaddy of compensated nuts:

LOVE IT! This is from the 70s isn't it? Any idea of company and year?

It's my Micro-Frets. Probably from around 1970 or so. They ran from mid 60s to early 70s and ran out of steam. Pretty cool guitars, though. They've also got a vibrato w/ individual set screws that allow you to adjust the relative pitch drop of strings (allows a chord to stay in tune when you drop it with the vibrato, but you can also do stuff like set it up to lower some notes and raise one at the same time, etc.) They also had a RF option with a telescoping antenna you pulled out of the guotar body, lol

 

[fronobulax]

Idiot bassist with a question time.

Why would you want a compensated nut? Is it for situations where making intonation adjustments at the bridge are difficult or is there some other reason. I understand that all bridges are not easily adjustable and sometimes it takes a luthier and woodworking skills to compensate at the bridge/saddle but is there any other reason or do people consider that sufficient reason enough?

 

[jte]

Idiot bassist with a question time.
Why would you want a compensated nut? Is it for situations where making intonation adjustments at the bridge are difficult or is there some other reason. I understand that all bridges are not easily adjustable and sometimes it takes a luthier and woodworking skills to compensate at the bridge/saddle but is there any other reason or do people consider that sufficient reason enough?

Adjusting intonation isn't precise because the tempered scale of western music has some errors built in to allow things to be played in different keys. Bottom line is that "intonation" is a process of trying to get things to be equally out of tune, rather than getting things to be perfectly in tune. When Buzz Feiten was doing a lot of studio work he was frequently aggravated because he couldn't get guitars to sound in tune in all positions. That's what lead to him developing his system of compensating for string deflection and for temperment at the nut as well as the saddles. Similarly the Micro-Fret system (my first bass was a Micro-Fret bass I got used back in 1976- I wonder what I would think of that bass if I had it now?) was an attempt to adjust things for more accurate intonation.

I have a friend who had the Feiten system built into a couple of his custom-made electrics and he said it was a huge difference he could really hear. However when he started playing Les Pauls again, he didn't have the Feiten retrofitted on his Paul.

John

 

[fearless]

What he said, plus:

Yes, if you play chords at the low frets, they are out of tune, while further up the fretboard they might be in tune. Especially noticeable when fretting at first and second frets. If you tuned an open E chord to to be perfectly in tune, the G string would be rottenly out of tune for any other chord.

There are multiple reasons for tuning difficulties, but the big one that a compensated nut addresses is the effect of fretting a note close to the nut. When you fret a note at the lower frets you stretch it more than anywhere else, and you can feel it with your fingers - there is more pressure that needs to be applied. Also, you are increasing the length of the string, (which has the opposite effect).

The effect is worst with a nut that is cut too high, increasing the stretch when fretting. Compensating at both ends, i.e. not just at the bridge, can virtually eliminate the effect (by all accounts).

I haven't actually tried a compensated nut yet, but I really notice the inability to tune a guitar over the whole fretboard, especially when I want to play both high and low on the neck. And I have my guitar set-up perfectly, with the nut cut really low. You can kind of compensate by tuning flat and bending sharp further up the neck, but it isn't easy and won't work if you want to play open strings and high fretted strings.

Clear as mud? The Earvana website explains it better than me! :lol:

 

[fearless]

Here's the granddaddy of compensated nuts:

LOVE IT! This is from the 70s isn't it? Any idea of company and year?

It's my Micro-Frets. Probably from around 1970 or so. They ran from mid 60s to early 70s and ran out of steam. Pretty cool guitars, though. They've also got a vibrato w/ individual set screws that allow you to adjust the relative pitch drop of strings (allows a chord to stay in tune when you drop it with the vibrato, but you can also do stuff like set it up to lower some notes and raise one at the same time, etc.) They also had a RF option with a telescoping antenna you pulled out of the guotar body, lol

Sounds like a really innovative company. Ahead of their time maybe. I love that adjustable nut. How is the rest of the guitar? The headstock looks similar to a Strat from the tiny bit I can see.

 

[fearless]

Here is a radical solution.

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

I think two problems are being addressed, one is the fretting effect, and the other is the "true temperament" thing, which dictates a different fret shape for each key.

It will never make an H chord sound good though...

 

[fronobulax]

Ok. I understand about tempered scales and intonation. As someone whose experience is almost exclusively on single note instruments (tuba, bass guitar) I am used to gross tuning (tuning slide, tuning pegs) and fine tuning (valve slides, bridge) to get the instrument 'close' for a wide variety of situations and then compensating ("lipping a note" or bending a string) whenever the necessity to do so aligns with my ears and my technical ability to do so.

Since I didn't make it clear what I already understood (but thanks for explaining, nonetheless) let me rephrase my question as: Why install a compensated nut instead of making the required adjustment at the bridge? A partial answer seems to be that it is easier to adjust the nut, especially if the adjustment has to be made on stage on a song by song basis.

 

[kakerlak]

...How is the rest of the guitar?

Kooky in a 60s kind of way. Funny headstock shape, oddball f-hole that's backed with black canvas, two-piece hollow bodies that are routed out on the inside and joined together w/ automotive style spring clips, split level pickguard, big Bill Lawrence singlecoils cased in slabs of white lucite. They have blank-topped Guild knobs, too, BTW.

I'll grab some more pics and post when I'm home later.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

...Why install a compensated nut instead of making the required adjustment at the bridge?

To achieve 'perfect' intonation, both are required. Here is an explanation from the Buzz Feiten site:

"The positive effect created by nut movement in the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is the elimination of sharp notes at the first three frets. This is due to the fact that guitar strings exhibit greater tension at the point of attachment to the nut than they do further up the fingerboard. This phenomenon, called 'end tension', causes strings to play sharper in pitch near the point of attachment to the nut - typically the first three frets. The movement of the nut slightly changes the scale length (the distance from the nut to the bridge) of the strings according to our formulas based on the original scale length, string gauge and fret width of the guitar. When your guitar is retrofitted with the system, your Authorized Retrofitter uses our exclusive Shelf Nut that slightly hangs over the fingerboard so that the end of the fingerboard does not need to be cut to reposition the nut. The entire process is non-intrusive to your instrument making it perfectly acceptable for any guitar including vintage instruments. Your Authorized Retrofitter will grind the front of the Shelf Nut so that the 'shelf' protrudes over the top of the fingerboard the exact amount needed to eliminate sharp notes for your particular guitar. This effect is then integrated into the formulas for the tempering process (adjustment of the bridge saddles) of the Buzz Feiten Tuning System. The two steps, nut movement and tempering, are what balance all the strings across the entire fingerboard in our system. A capo doesn't replace our nut movement, just as playing a barre chord doesn't. A capo only has the same effect as playing a barre chord. Please note that when applying the capo, use only enough pressure to hold the string down, the same as you would when playing a barre chord."

Christopher

 

[fronobulax]

...Why install a compensated nut instead of making the required adjustment at the bridge?

To achieve 'perfect' intonation, both are required. Here is an explanation from the Buzz Feiten site:

Thanks.

I'm not sure I understand why fretted strings exhibit greater tension, thus requiring compensation at both ends, but I'm not prepared to throw the B.S. flag either. This was kind of interesting. I do get the idea that Mr. Feiten's theories are somewhat like ToneRite. They make sense and seem to work but the proof and explanation as to why are not universally agreed upon.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Great article / summary. Thanks.

Christopher

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

And then there's always: the Zero Fret.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[fearless]

...Why install a compensated nut instead of making the required adjustment at the bridge?

To achieve 'perfect' intonation, both are required. Here is an explanation from the Buzz Feiten site:

Thanks.

I'm not sure I understand why fretted strings exhibit greater tension, thus requiring compensation at both ends, but I'm not prepared to throw the B.S. flag either. This was kind of interesting. I do get the idea that Mr. Feiten's theories are somewhat like ToneRite. They make sense and seem to work but the proof and explanation as to why are not universally agreed upon.

That was a good summary article, thanks. He explains within how fretting makes the notes sharp, essentially you are stretching the string simply by fretting it. The smallest amount of "fretting stretch" is at the 12th fret, since this is halfway along the string. It increases the more you move from the centre towards the bridge or the nut, since to get the string to deflect the same linear distance to the fret, the total stretch is greater. Since the nut is right at the end, the first fret is where the stretch is greatest. This can shown mathematically - a bit of high-school trigonometry, but I won't be dragging any of that up to post!

I agree that there is a lack of universal agreement about how best to address the issue, along with the other tuning issues inherent in fretted instruments. I think the principles are agreed on, however - they are are there in the science for anyone willing to study it. It is not simple - there are many factors at play, some cancelling each other out, some reinforcing each other, so inevitably, every solution is a compromise and each approach will have its own disciples. It is possible to get lost all the theory and even though I have science training, I think that it is the effectiveness of the available solutions that is the important thing to think about when making a decision. BF and Earvana/EB should both work. I happen to prefer Earvana/EB as it is is cheaper! I also think it is a slightly more simple and elegant solution, (if less cosmetically appealing with the retro-fit shelf nuts). But plenty of people seem to swear by the BF system too.

Here is a chart from Earvana's website. You can see how the effect is most pronounce at the lower frets. The E/EB system produces a couple of slightly flat notes higher up the fretboard, but that doesn't bother me since it is easy to sharpen slightly with extra finger pressure or a slight bend. I doubt I would really notice that but I do DEFINITELY notice the out-of-tune character of open chords. How "worth it" it is, I won't know for sure until I've installed an Earvana on my next guitar. (Actually I might go for a hand-cut bone compensated nut according to the same principles). I'll report on results, but it likely won't be for a couple of months.