Bearclaw as a Finish Defect???

[guildzilla]

Interesting thread. I wasn't aware there had been a shift in thinking about bear claw tops, at least sitka spruce bear claw tops. I once had a discussion with my luthier on the subject. His primary pleasure is building violins and he considers bear claw figuring to be a prime indicator of tone wood quality for a violin or guitar.

While I'm no expert, what I've noticed about Guild acoustics from 1980 and onward is that the Westerly guitars with a Chesterfield inlay - the mid-level models such as F-212's, JF-30-12's, DV-52's, etc. - very frequently have tops with a little or a lot of bear claw figure.

The G-shield acoustics - F-512's and F-412's, D-55's, GF-60's and F-50's - seem to have sitka tops that were selected to exclude this figuring.

However, on the entry level guitars - D-4's, D-25's, etc - I think you also seldom see a top with bear claw figure.

Whether it's a pattern or not, it leads me to speculate that Guild's take was that the bear claw tops were too nice to use on the entry level guitars but not perfect enough to use on the top line guitars.

From a personal taste perspective, when a top only has one to several bear claw "slashes," it can look a little out of place, IMO. But, to me, even those tops have sounded a cut above the norm. When a top has a lot of bear claw, it looks very cool indeed. My '81 F-212XL has gorgeous and abundant bear claw figure, as well as remarkably tight grain. And it sounds as great as it looks.

No offense intended, Tony. I certainly agree with your observation that what was considered great wood in the 80's would not have been considered great wood in the 60's. I have the same bias.

 

[taabru45]

Don't know how well/if this will show up here but this is a classic example of bearclaw on Englemann spruce.

Southern British Columbia mountains in the fall with signs posted: "Grizzlies in the area. Be alert."

Didn't have to tell us twice! :wink:
Joe

Is this the sign you read Joe??? Seriously folks,,, there is something about a ten to twelve foot grizzly weighing hundreds of pounds more than you makes you feel mighty........small, Steffan
http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/pages/ ... -sign.html

 

[killdeer43]

No offense intended, Tony. I certainly agree with your observation that what was considered great wood in the 80's would not have been considered great wood in the 60's. I have the same bias.

So true, so true.
Old timers tell me that they used to throw away material we call 'good' today. Maybe that's one of the reasons we pay more, now?
As a cabinetmaker, I can attest to the fact that quality across the board (no pun intended) has suffered, and whether you're building kitchen cabinets or musical instruments, you really need to do a lot of hands-on inspection of the materials you plan to use.

Joe

 

[devellis]

Bear claw is often associated with stiffer spruce, which allows a top to be thinner and to have the same strength as a thicker top of less stiffness. It's not a guarantee of greater stiffness but there tends to be a relationship, according to Dana Bourgeois, among others. Bourgeois knows his way around wood and voicing, so I tend to trust his opinion.

Most of the bearclaw that was considered inferior decades ago was wood that had sort of a random streak somewhere. The premium stuff that brings an upcharge these days tends to be more extensive and more symmetrical in its patterning. It becomes an enhancement, visually, to the figure of the wood. As an analogy, think about a highly figured piece of rosewood with attractive, symmetrical "landscape" figure of dark areas running its full length. Now think about a piece with just one random dark blotch. The first is good, the latter, not so much.

Here's a pic of my bearclaw Bourgeois, if I can get the image function to work

 

[killdeer43]

That's a fine looking guitar, Bob, and the top speaks character.
Does it sound as great as I would imagine?

Joe

**Sort of reminds me of my spruce tree shot. Mauled by a bear! :lol:

 

[devellis]

Thanks, Joe. Yeah, I'm very pleased with its sound. It has that mahogany presence that can be so great for flatpicking. Dana makes really nice instruments. I visited his shop in Maine last summer and he's at his bench virtually every day. Each instrument gets lots of individual attention and he does the wood selection and final setup on them. The few other guys in the shop also really know what they're doing.

Back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, New England was a mecca of fine fretted instrument construction. Bacon, Fairbanks, Vega, Howe-Orme, Cole, Haynes, and others were all based in the New England states and were the innovators and masters of their craft. Several individual builders (Osthoff, Tippin), some small builders (Bourgeois and Froggy Bottom) -- and now once again, Guild -- represent to me a return to that great old tradition.

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

Here's a pic of my bearclaw Bourgeois,

Thanks for sharing, Bob. That is a very fine looking guitar!!

...and an interesting topic.

~nw

 

[adorshki]

[quote="cjd-player":3b50n8sd]bearclaw

What is it on a guitar? Those parallel diagonal lines angled toward the bridge?

Yes.

It's a genetic condition in the tree, somewhat akin to tiger stripe in maple, where the grain direction ripples. It makes the surface of the board look as though a bear had clawed the tree - hense the name. Many luthiers feel that the presence of bearclaw is indicative of stiffer spruce. So depending upon the guitar and how you play, that can be good.
I recently played a small-body guitar that had a sitka top with a lot of bearclaw and EI rosewood back and sides. I think it was the loudest guitar I have ever played, and had way too much sustain for my taste.[/quote:3b50n8sd]
That's very interesting. My D25 has it almost exactly like that F47 and both those things are true of the '25.

 

[dapmdave]

My "clawed" Taylor isn't nearly as pretty as the Bourgeois, but frankly I purchased it for it's tone and playability. I don't know if the bearclaw (mostly on the lower bout) is in any way responsible for the tone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting.

We'll just not display the headstock, or the label...

Dave

 

[fab467]

My "clawed" Taylor isn't nearly as pretty as the Bourgeois, but frankly I purchased it for it's tone and playability. I don't know if the bearclaw (mostly on the lower bout) is in any way responsible for the tone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting.

We'll just not display the headstock, or the label...

Dave

Dave,

That is a very pretty guitar, regardless of what the headstock reads...bet it sings too!

 

[dapmdave]

My "clawed" Taylor isn't nearly as pretty as the Bourgeois, but frankly I purchased it for it's tone and playability. I don't know if the bearclaw (mostly on the lower bout) is in any way responsible for the tone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting.

We'll just not display the headstock, or the label...

Dave

Dave,

That is a very pretty guitar, regardless of what the headstock reads...bet it sings too!

I played it about 15 minutes was sold! It's a little bit unique, being one of their "specials" with spruce top & koa back & sides, and some other trim upgrades. Not a rare guitar, but not the standard 414ce, either.

 

[cjd-player]

I played it about 15 minutes was sold! It's a little bit unique, being one of their "specials" with spruce top & koa back & sides, and some other trim upgrades. Not a rare guitar, but not the standard 414ce, either.

Those limited edition 414's are some of the best-value Tayors. Upgraded woods like koa and rosewood from time to time at very reasonable prices.

 

[Bing k]

Some folks will spend exorbitant amounts of time and money to create figured tops and some folks want to call tops with natural grain variation "defective".
It's a piece of wood. It grew all by it's self like no other piece of wood in the world. Every solid top guitar is different because every piece of wood is different no matter how thin you cut it. Where a branch grew out of the trunk, or the wind blew at it from one side for 20 years, or any number of things that affected the growth of the tree can result in the variations.
There is the old argument that straight grain has different tone than grain that is not straight and that may be so, but I've never found that "bearclaw" in a top detracted from the tone or the looks of a guitar.

Here are some examples:
http://www.guitarsofmontana.com/feature.html
The D-50 is a great looking and sounding instrument.

 

[dapmdave]

Some folks will spend exorbitant amounts of time and money to create figured tops and some folks want to call tops with natural grain variation "defective".
It's a piece of wood. It grew all by it's self like no other piece of wood in the world. Every solid top guitar is different because every piece of wood is different no matter how thin you cut it. Where a branch grew out of the trunk, or the wind blew at it from one side for 20 years, or any number of things that affected the growth of the tree can result in the variations.
There is the old argument that straight grain has different tone than grain that is not straight and that may be so, but I've never found that "bearclaw" in a top detracted from the tone or the looks of a guitar.

Here are some examples:
http://www.guitarsofmontana.com/feature.html
The D-50 is a great looking and sounding instrument.

Well put, Bing. And, that is a nice-lookin' D-50!

Dave

 

[cjd-player]

Agreed.
That D-50 is beautiful!

 

[devellis]

Yeah, both the D50 and the Taylor are very nice looking guitars.

To my eye, there are lots of ways a guitar can look great. I've seen tops that were so creamy smooth in texture that they looked great and others that had grain variations that really made them stand out. Likewise, a nice sunburst can look fantastic, even though it hides much of the grain. Let's not forget that Gibson used sunbursts largely to hide ungainly seem joints and unattractive grain. On their F-style mandolins, the thickness of the rib in the area of the scroll is only partially the bent side piece. A good 1/4 inch or so is actually the edge of the top plate. If you left that finished with only a clear lacquer, it would look unattractive (or so they believed in the early 1900s), so they finished the sides in a dark stain to hide that seam and make the whole side surface appear as one continuous piece of wood. That approach eventually led to a graduated stain that showed the pretty parts of the grain but hid the parts considered unsightly (on both sides and top). So, sunbursts, somewhat like bearclaw, went from the sign of something to hide to a desirable, extra-cost enhancement. Some early Gibson mandolins have extremely unstraight top grain, hidden under a dark Sheraton brown stain. As the stain fades a bit over time and the grain starts to show through, people are actually finding it very interesting and it clearly doesn't adversely affect tone.

The first criterion should always be how an instrument sounds, in my book. After that, if the owner likes the looks, nothing else really matters. I for one like a whole variety of woods and grain patterns.

 

[fab467]

Yeah, both the D50 and the Taylor are very nice looking guitars.

To my eye, there are lots of ways a guitar can look great. I've seen tops that were so creamy smooth in texture that they looked great and others that had grain variations that really made them stand out. Likewise, a nice sunburst can look fantastic, even though it hides much of the grain. Let's not forget that Gibson used sunbursts largely to hide ungainly seem joints and unattractive grain. On their F-style mandolins, the thickness of the rib in the area of the scroll is only partially the bent side piece. A good 1/4 inch or so is actually the edge of the top plate. If you left that finished with only a clear lacquer, it would look unattractive (or so they believed in the early 1900s), so they finished the sides in a dark stain to hide that seam and make the whole side surface appear as one continuous piece of wood. That approach eventually led to a graduated stain that showed the pretty parts of the grain but hid the parts considered unsightly (on both sides and top). So, sunbursts, somewhat like bearclaw, went from the sign of something to hide to a desirable, extra-cost enhancement. Some early Gibson mandolins have extremely unstraight top grain, hidden under a dark Sheraton brown stain. As the stain fades a bit over time and the grain starts to show through, people are actually finding it very interesting and it clearly doesn't adversely affect tone.

The first criterion should always be how an instrument sounds, in my book. After that, if the owner likes the looks, nothing else really matters. I for one like a whole variety of woods and grain patterns.

Great post BD. Both interesting and informative, like most of your others...

 

[Dr Izza Plumber]

I loves me some bear claws. :wink:

 

[sfIII]

My $0.02

Several of my GF guitars (well one of the GF-30's and at least one other if IRC) have bear claw spruce tops... If it was good enough for Kim Walker It was good enough for me. And I think Bing is spot on. Every guitar is different. I only have duplicate of two models the GF-30 and GF-25. The GF-30s sound very different. Less so for the GF-25's

Howard

 

[Jeff]

I have no research to back this up, but I suspect the reason we so much of the beautiful figured woods in both the top & bodies of modern guitars is two fold.

1st; supply, there's not the same abundance of the tight, straight grained woods available in years past.

2nd; Modern tooling & machinery make it possible to work with this stuff efficiently. As a hobby woodworker, , figured wood like the top on this Taylor is some challenging stuff to work with. Much material does not make it thru the cutting & shaping process.

These are some pretty tops, personally, all else equal, I'd take either one of these over a plain straight grained top.