Tuning down a Guild 12 string

[William63]

I will be purchasing an F512 within the next 3 to 4 weeks and I plan on having it tuned down one whole step. I like my action as low as possible so my question is should I have the guitar set up with a heavier gauged strings or should I keep light strings on it?

 

[Graham]

I bought a JF30-12 off of Scratch and he has his 12s tuned down. It has lights on it, and the action on this guitar is incredible. The sound, of course is all Guild.

Also if you listen to Scratch's new music posts, you'll hear his new JF30-12 just set up also with light strings.

That should say enough.

 

[Westerly Wood]

Hey bill, big congrats on the 512.

When I had my F212XL, I used lights and tuned down either a 1/2 or a full step. .10-.47 was the guage, either the d'addario or the elixirs. Really easy to play and great big tone. Never tried mediums. I hear that meds down a full step or 1/2 really growl.

 

[Guildmark]

My 12 is a G-312. I tune down a step and capo up two frets. Usually Martin or John Pearse lights. The action is nice and low. I finger-pick and strum; not a flat-picker.

 

[6L6]

I tune my '06 F-412 to Eb and use Light gauge strings. Sounds great, plays super easy!

6

 

[killdeer43]

My 12 is a G-312. I tune down a step and capo up two frets. Usually Martin or John Pearse lights. The action is nice and low. I finger-pick and strum; not a flat-picker.

Likewise, you betcha.
I think I've mentioned this in previous posts, and it works really well. When you tune down and then capo on the second fret, your 12'er will be in standard tuning. Then you can invite the whole family to join in the fun (of course, that's an option).
Martin lights are on my 12, as well. Great minds, again, Mark?

Joe

 

[jgmaute]

I love my '67 f-312. Somewhere in the depths of my memory I remember someone saying that if you tune down and leave the capo on all the time it actually puts more stress on the neck...not sure about that but I've got the marks on the back of the neck from leaving it tuned down, capoed up two, and in a hot case (probably at some outdoor concert in the summer). Of course, being older and wiser I now know to remove a capo before I case a guitar. (Anyone recognize the "signature" of the capo that did the dirty deed?) I rarely use a capo on my 12 but when I do I'm using the Planet Waves NS Silver and of course it comes off when I'm not playing. I use a Kyser on my 6 strings, again I don't use one much except when I am jamming (at least once a week) with others then it's on and off all the time. I like the quick on and off feature of the Kyser and the fact I can clamp on the headstock when I'm not using it...haven't capos come a long way...but I digress...

Now I keep it at 440. I just put D'addario EXP phosphor bronze lights on and I love them. (Last set was Elixir and I hated them; due to the humidity here I changed from regular to coated strings, my guitar sounds brighter with D'addario).

jgm

 

[killdeer43]

I usually use the capo when I play with someone else, and I never leave it on because it negates the effect of tuning down in the first place; i.e., to lessen the stress on the neck/bridge.
I also use a Kyser and find that it works really well.

Cheers,
Joe

 

[chazmo]

Ouch, JG! I think I had one of those capos with a thin, mesh vinyl strap. Can't remember what it was, but I lost it a long time ago. That's a major boo-boo, but a good story. That's some serious capo mojo!

Guys, I think you may be off... If you're tuned down, you *are* alleviating pull on the bridge and neck, regardless of the capo (all other things being equal). I don't see what the capo has to do with tension in this discussion. Am I wrong?

p.s./ And, by the way, try a Schubb if you haven't already. Great design (IMO).

 

[killdeer43]

[quote Guys, I think you may be off... [/quote]

I've been accused more than once of being "way off" and sometimes even "far out." However, and IMHO, a stress engineer just might say that the capo, in effect, tightens the strings, and thereby produces a similar effect to tightening them when you tune 'up' to standard tuning. Ergo, stress.

Is there an engineer in the house?

Joe
:idea:

 

[chazmo]

Hehehe... I've been accused of being a bit "way out" myself at times, Joe.

But, no, you are essentially shortening the strings to raise their pitch when you fret 'em with the capo, not tightening (stretching) them. Yes, you do stretch a string slightly by a very small amount when you depress it against a fret. That would account for some increase in tension, but not significant compared to raising pitch by tuning up.

Does that make sense?

 

[killdeer43]

Does that make sense?

So, what you're saying is that the initial tension is applied as you tune it, and 'shortening the strings' with the capo does not add significantly to the tension. Makes perfect sense.
And, to continue our exemplary discussion, if I were to leave a capo on, say, the fifth fret (just as an example), there would be little or no effect/stress on the neck/bridge?

And I asked if we had an engineer in the house! Silly me.

Stay tuned,
Joe

 

[chazmo]

[ ... ]if I were to leave a capo on, say, the fifth fret (just as an example), there would be little or no effect/stress on the neck/bridge?

I think that's true, Joe. At least, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

And I asked if we had an engineer in the house! Silly me.

I'm not sure being a software engineer counts in this discussion, but I'll get as much mileage from it as I can.

Stay tuned,
Joe

Or, stay down-tuned, as the case may be.

 

[killdeer43]

[/quote]Or, stay down-tuned, as the case may be. [/quote]

I'll do my best.
I enjoyed our discussion, and I'll be sure to get back to you if I discover a new wrinkle. I'll throw it out to a couple of engineer friends over coffee tomorrow.

Take care,
Joe

 

[count savage]

For what it's worth, I had my new F 512 set up with medium gauge strings but tuned to standard D, which is what I've always played 12-string in. The bass is tight and present and not boomy but what I discovered is that it's pretty tiring to press all the strings down after a while and I've developed what I call guitar elbow, which is like tennis elbow only from playing guitar. But guitar elbow is bad! The more you play the worse it gets. This has never happened in 40 years of playing (even working as a professional for a while) until I started playing the Guild 12 with mediums. So, as much as I like the sound of the mediums, I'm going back to lights and hope that helps.

 

[john_kidder]

Always kept my 12s tuned to 440, figuring that the manufacturers designed them that way.

Never a problem with my G312 or earlier F212, or my '73 Ovation. '69 Aria bent like a bow after a few years, but so did their 6 strings, I gather.

I've also had a difficult time with a regular capo on a 12 - to get the octave strings properly fretted I had to cinch the capo down so tight that the regular strings were always sharp. Only solution I found was the "Heriba Capidastro" (apologies for the cellphone pic)

I found that all those little teeth (covered in use with a thin surgical rubber sleeve) give the flexibility to make capoing a 12 string possible without constant retuning.

 

[Phlytyer]

But, no, you are essentially shortening the strings to raise their pitch when you fret 'em with the capo, not tightening (stretching) them. Yes, you do stretch a string slightly by a very small amount when you depress it against a fret. That would account for some increase in tension, but not significant compared to raising pitch by tuning up.

Bingo! I keep my 30-12 at D with G1250s and capo as necessary. IMHO, as for leaving a capo on full time just wears out the capo and will likely mar the finish on the neck in the long run (we've all seen the pictures of necks with 'sweat marks' caused by a guitar's finish reacting to prolonged contact with the protective plastic or rubber on a stand's neck support).

FWIW - Read some where on the net where one of the "pros" (Kottke, Perlman or some such) mentioned using heavier gauge and tuning down to get the 'jingly-jangly' sound.

 

[The Sailor]

>"Is there an engineer in the house?"

My degree is in aviation engineering & I used to be a sound engr, (20 years.) Capo-ing will not increase stress, except as much as constant bar chording will, i.e. minimal.

That's why it works, you get easier action tuning down and then come back to 440 by capoing, nest pas?

p.s. I recognized the pictured capo marks, can't remember the brand but I still have one of those awful damn things but never use it. It's a keepsake;-)
Question: Is Kyser the 'lemon squeezer' type? I have one of those too, it seems like a lot of hardware gets in the way.

p.p.s. 'guitar elbow' might be alleviated by letting your arm's weight help make the chord instead of relying on strength. Kinda a 'classical method'. As always, INAD and YMMV, and others in this forum are better players & more knowledgeable. Maybe they can set us both straight.

Quick aside: I remember Van Halen's live sound engr telling me that David Lee Roth's voice would gradually lose it's range during live tours (gee, I wonder why?) and the whole band would tune down together so he could still hit the high notes. By the end of the tour Eddies strings were so lose you could hear the fret slap. Dog nose what Michael Anthony's bass sounded like!

 

[taabru45]

A little aside here, but l remember Phyllis Diller saying about aging..."i've had so many face lifts that that dimple in my chin is my belly button, If I have one more...I'll have to shave." :lol: :lol: Steffan (not knowing why that came to mind :roll: )

 

[killdeer43]

A little aside here, but l remember Phyllis Diller saying about aging..."i've had so many face lifts that that dimple in my chin is my belly button, If I have one more...I'll have to shave." :lol: :lol: Steffan (not knowing why that came to mind :roll: )

*One veer deserves another:
The old Flip Wilson variation has an old timer trying to impress his young girlfriend with a facelift and he also has his belly button (which is now on his chin) mistaken for a dimple. She's all excited and he says, "If you want a real surprise, open up my shirt collar!" :lol:

LOL indeed,
Joe