State Law and insanity.

[adorshki]

So let me get this right: Florida State Law says no front wheel drive car can ever get the tires rotated then (since the front tires WILL ALWAYS BE WEARING OUT FASTER THAN THE REAR, STARTING ON THE DAY I INSTALL BRAND NEW TIRES ON THE CAR!!!!!?....

"Yessir. That's correct sir. State law number 22, sir."

The whole purpose of tire rotation is to evenly wear the front and back tires, so you're telling me that as soon as the front tires wear out a bit, I have to throw them away because they can't be placed in the rear and replaced with the back tires with a bit less wear on them???!!"

"We usually recommend that customers rotate the tires themselves sir. Of course, if you insist, we can dispose of them for you, the state recycling fee is only $25.00 per tire."

-Well I wish you had told me the joke before I dropped the car so I could have gone home, changed the oil and rotated the tires myself, which is now what I have to go do!

"Yessir, but state law also requires us write up all service orders in full, regardless of their legality.
Also you should be aware that failure to have a qualified professional mechanic rotate your tires and keep a record of that labor could void the manufacturer's mileage warranty on the tires. Except Michelin who doesn't offer mileage warranties.
I'd like to offer you a brand new tire pressure gauge or a free air freshener for your rear view mirror in apology for your trouble."
OK, all kidding aside, I deal with a chain out here, Wheel Works, primarily because they carry my favorite brand, but also because with purchase of full set of tires I get lifetime free rotation and alignment, and get the oil changes done at the same time as the rotation (And they're usually running a specil on oil changes too.) Takes about a half hour with appointment at the right time of day.
Even got money back on my last set of Bridgestones when I only got about 35k on 40k warranted tires.
I like to take those clover leafs as fast as I can, but I make sure they're always inflated to the manufacturer's max cold pressure. And have records of the rotations.
Speaking of strange laws, here in the Dutchy of Santa Clara it's illegal to feed stray animals.

 

[bluesypicky]

I'd like to offer you a brand new tire pressure gauge or a free air freshener for your rear view mirror in apology for your trouble."

Let me give you a quick and clear idea of the location where I'd like you to stick your pressure gauge, and direct me to your manager please.

OK, all kidding aside, I deal with a chain out here, Wheel Works, primarily because they carry my favorite brand, but also because with purchase of full set of tires I get lifetime free rotation.

What good is the lifetime free rotation if you own a front wheel drive and state law requires that the better shaped tires be on the rear axle? Oh... it's fun!

I make sure they're always inflated to the manufacturer's max cold pressure.

One more feature our brilliant brains have in common.

 

[CA-35]

That's why they call it Flori-DUH.

I too feel your pain Pascal. My advice is to find a good local independent mechanic. I have one here I've used for twenty years and he acknowledges the law and then politely rotates. I'm old school and have always put my best rubber on the steering axle, especially on a front wheel drive. But what the heck do I know?

 

[adorshki]

What good is the lifetime free rotation if you own a front wheel drive and state law requires that the better shaped tires be on the rear axle?

Mainly offered as something that may bear investigating both for how warranty would work in a situation like that (having the seller perform the service required to maintain warranty) and as a cheap, clean and quick way to accomplish both tasks.
They dispose of the oil properly too.
Mentioned the name in case they've got a presence out there.
I realize Florida state law may preclude offering such warranties as I mention.
On reflection though I still wonder if that's actually true even though it seems to be corroborated by a couple of other Florida residents here?
"Myths" do have a way of taking on a life of their own sometimes. Kinda like "it's illegal to pass on the right." (it's legal in California)
In fact whether it's actually law or not, I have run into this recommendation about putting the better tread on the rear in FWD cars before, because: There's a lot less weight on the rear axle in an fwd car and the extra traction will help prevent fishtailing or even full spins, whereas even if your fronts are bald, you still have steering input to correct with in case of loss of traction.
Ever seen guys put sandbags in the beds of their pickups for better traction? Same principle: rear end's too light in proportion to the front.
It's even been in Ford owner's manuals: if purchasing tires for one axle only, put the new ones on the rear.
So I could see that perhaps the annual rainfall in Florida results in roads that are slick enough, often enough, for them to have "passed a regulation" regarding tire rotation.
Sure would make it to tough on tiremakers who require rotation to maintain warranty though.
That's the main reason I'm still a little skeptical. The more I think about it I'm also skeptical it would be a formal "law"(like speed limits) as opposed to some kind of DMV or Bureau of Automotive Repair regulation, like the ones here that say it's illegal for commercial (read: "licensed" ) dealers to sell a vehicle with less than 10% over minimum brake pad thickness or tire tread depth. It is a legitimate safety issue and not just for the buyer.
I could see it being based on a percentage of tread depth difference front-to-rear, maybe that's the "loophole"?
If you're rotating every 5000 miles the difference between the tread depths would be fairly negligible.
So it's more academic than anything else, but are you sure a guy at Pep Boys really knows his stuff? Was he actually able to cite the statute in question? If not it's possible he's actually in violation of BAR regs by not being able to do so.
I mean those guys need 1/2 an hour to swap a set of tires even if they're already mounted on the rims.
But I'm sure part of that is the union rules about not having more than one guy work on a given car in any given 10 minute period.
"wink"

 

[bluesypicky]

So how did that pressure gauge feel? lol

On reflection I still wonder if that's actually true even though it seems to be corroborated by a couple of other Florida residents here?
"Myths" do have a way of taking on a life of their own sometimes.

And I'm with you there. I cannot believe this to be true, as it would make tire rotation illegal only on front wheel drive cars!....and intend to get to the bottom of this, so I have made a formal complaint to the shop and expect a call from the manager tomorrow. Will keep y'all updated, even if it's only for $#its and giggles.

 

[walrus]

I'm afraid to ask how I would go about getting my AWD tires rotated in Florida. Based on the law, it seems logically impossible...

walrus

 

[bluesypicky]

I'm afraid to ask how I would go about getting my AWD tires rotated in Florida. Based on the law, it seems logically impossible...walrus

Correct, since your front end tires will always wear faster than the rear because of breaking and steering, as on a FWD.
To be continued.....

 

[adorshki]

So how did that pressure gauge feel? lol

Pressure gauge? What a relief, thought it was that stick that keeps periodically making it presence known. (grin)
Note I was editing while you were replying and added couple of details re "Bureau of Automotive Repair". I'm of the opinion that if he can't cite the specific reg, he may well be guilty of misrepresentation and the "ignorance is no excuse" rule may apply on top of that so he could turn out owing you big time...at the very least your beef about not being advised about the rotation problem (not available) at time of estimate would be a legitimate reportable "ding" out here.
"Committed, not performed, and not advised until time of pickup." Out here you should have been told at "time of discovery" and given the option to cancel or proceed (since it was conditional on purchasing the oil change), as you mention. In this case, it could be seen as a way of selling oil changes with the promise of free service that was manifestly unavailable, a variation of "bait and switch".
One thing to check, was there a disclaimer in the ad, a little asterisk with a claim of something like "eligible vehicles only", for the free rotation with oil change?
Then their a--es may be covered even if they didn't advise you at time of service write-up, and regardless of actual state statutes.

And I'm with you there. I cannot believe this to be true, as it would make tire rotation illegal only on front wheel drive cars!....and intend to get to the bottom of this, so I have made a formal complaint to the shop and expect a call from the manager tomorrow. Will keep y'all updated, even if it's only for $#its and giggles.

Yeah the more one thinks about it the less sense it makes.
For sure I'd tell him your friend in California who's a union lawyer is ready to file suit on a moment's notice.
(Make sure you get him to cop to lettin' more than one guy work on your car in a 10 minute period)
BIG GRIN

 

[adorshki]

Correct, since your front end tires will always wear faster than the rear because of breaking and steering, as on a FWD.

Except for the odd Honda Prelude and Mitsubisi 3000 GT's with AW Steering.
Here's a funny for you, when I got my Milan AWD smogged out here in CA, they couldn't perform the required treadmill load cycle 'cause it's AWD....It passed with flying colors and this was explained to me, and I assumed it was a legitimate loophole that was allowed by statute. I can't see it being any other way, the way the BAR monitors smog testing under a magnifying glass...
Back to the whole tread depth issue though, a basic concept of handling accuracy is that all tires have the same tread pattern and tread depths, as closely as possible, that's the whole point of rotation.
The advice to put newer tires on the rear in FWD cars is for folks who are only replacing 2 tires, for whatever reason. It's not intended to imply that tires only need to be purchased in pairs and shouldn't be or don't need to be rotated but it wouldn't surprise me if that's the source of the "myth", if myth it turns out to be..
I should also point out for accuracy that mileage warranties are based on even tread wear and therefore proper alignment is the actually the more critical factor, but 5,000 mile intervals of rotation help assure that alignment problems are discovered and corrected in a timely manner, and keep the tread depths very close on all 4 tires.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

...Then their a--es may be covered...

When originally proposing the rotate law, didn't they say, "If you want to keep your old tires, you can." Or did I just make that up? {smile}

 

[adorshki]

When originally proposing the rotate law, didn't they say, "If you want to keep your old tires, you can." Or did I just make that up? {smile}

Only if you keep 'em in the back yard and you can demonstrate you're not using them as an un-authorized mosquito hatchery.
For example, out here, I could demonstrate my conscientious use of DDT to avoid the hatchery clause, but since I don't actually have a back yard, I'd have to store 'em hanging from the side of my balcony, and that manner of storage is only legal at marinas.
I guess I could keep 'em in a corner in the kitchen like my aunt does, right next to her dog and cat cages.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Only if you keep 'em in the back yard and you can demonstrate you're not using them as an un-authorized mosquito hatchery.
For example, out here, I could demonstrate my conscientious use of DDT to avoid the hatchery clause, but since I don't actually have a back yard, I'd have to store 'em hanging from the side of my balcony, and that manner of storage is only legal at marinas.
I guess I could keep 'em in a corner in the kitchen like my aunt does, right next to her dog and cat cages.

Pretty funny, Al. {laugh}

 

[adorshki]

Pretty funny, Al. {laugh}

Well, where she lives in Arizona, it's legal to have her Santeria shrine in the front yard, but not used up tires.
(I'm not making this up.)
It occurs to me that the operative clause there might be "used up".
I'll have to ask her.