Starfire lll bridge question?????

cupric

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Is the bridge on my SF the correct height? Should this amount of post/thread be visable? I looked all over the internet and the bridge height on a Guild bigsby does not seem to be discussed anywhere. I seem to remember that this bridge was discussed in the initial for sale posting.
Finding string height adjustment etc. is confusing. Mostly because of all the bridge types available. Guild seems to have most in common with the Gretch bridge. Is there a standard height above the pickups? Soundboard?
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cupric

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The offset bridge issue has been resolved. These pictures were taken prior to that and shared on this forum. I did not adjust the bridge height, so in thought it might still be applicable to the question.
 

SFIV1967

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why a neck reset?
The bridge is pretty much bottomed out, means you can't lower it anymore. Which is a sign that the neck angle is too shallow. You see that there is almost no break angle over the bridge.
Here is an example for a "good" break angle, but that is almost impossible on a Starfire with bigsby. It's just to illustrate what we say.

1610490543726.png


Setting up an electric guitar follows the same rules like for an acoustic guitar. At that point you don't even worry about pickups!

So first you make sure the neck is "straight". You would correct if necessary with the truss rod nut.
Stick a capo on the first fret, press down on the 15th fret and then use the straight string as a guide to see how bent forward the neck is. The feeler gauge is put over the eighth or ninth fret underneath the string - .007” is the magic clearance, which is like a thin business card or two sheets of paper. Any smaller than that clearance and the string will bang onto the frets when played; much larger than that and the string’s height will be excessive.

When turning the truss rod nut, do never turn it more than 1/8th of a turn before tuning the guitar again and measuring again. Step by step.

1610490726578.png


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Next step would be to adjust the height of the bridge by turning the thumbwheels on the bridgebase. In your case there might be no possibility to adjust anything as the bridge is already at the bottom, but let me explain:

"Typically" an acoustic guitar is setup to 6/64th at the low E and 4/64th at the high E-string at the 12th fret.

A good place to start for the action of an electric guitar is at the 12th fret (with no capo on) 5/64th" or 4/64″ on the low E string and 4/64th or 3/64″ on the high E.

Mind that all depends on the players preferences. A hard strummer or a bluegrass picker might like the action relatively high, in order to avoid string-buzzing. Many jazz guitarists prefer low action, which is friendlier to fingers playing fast scale runs and numerous, rapid, frequently complex chord changes. Lower action is more likely to produce string-buzzing.

So the below would be o.k. for many, or a little bit too high for some. Depends also what string gauge you use and how hard you bend strings:

1610490927642.png



With your action set and test played for buzzing, it’s time to look at the pickups and adjust them in height, maybe angle and adjust the polepieces. But honestly, Dirk Wacker here explains that much better than I can do:



As a last and important step you need to set the intonation! It means you need to set the correct length of the strings, so when you press a string on a fret it is in tune.
Normally you change the tone of a string by turning the tuning machine, so you set for instance the length of the D string to a tone D. But that is only fine as long as you don't press any frets when playing. So what means intonation? What you want to achive is that the harmonic chimed on the twelfth fret (means string is straight and you just touch it very slightly above the 12th fret without actually pressing it down) is in tune with the note played on the twelfth fret (means string pressed on the 12th fret). In that case both the string and the fretted string at the 12th fret are in tune, so the guitar sounds perfect when fretting.
You can imagine that by shifting the entire bridge back and forth you would change the length from the 12th fret to the saddle vs. the fixed length from the nut to the 12th fret. Depending on string thickness that is a bit different, hence you see saddles are not exactly in a 90deg angle with the strings but are slightly diagonal. (hence also two different intonated fixed bridges for a would or unwound G string, but that is yet another topic).

You normally need to set intonation one by one for each of the 6 strings. On an adjustable bridge it means moving the 6 saddle pieces back or forth, but in your case you can only move the whole floating bridge to set only the low and high E strings. So less work for you. I think I also posted videos before how to set the intonation with an archtop bridge. YouTube has many good examples.

By the way, the bridge in your first pictures in post #1 above looks like it is not at the perfect position. The strings might be not correctly intonated.

This picture below shows how you would move the 6 saddle pieces, if you would have such a bridge.

1610491059481.png



A floating bridge can only be placed in one place on any given guitar, but that place is unique to each guitar: it has to be set so that the harmonic chimed on the twelfth fret is in tune with the note played on the twelfth fret. (Of course, it is roughly the same place on all given guitars of a certain model, but each guitar has a unique sweet spot where the harmonics and notes at the twelfth fret match just right. Also, it is a given that the bridge must be someplace where the strings run straight in line with the neck of the guitar; don't move the bridge accidently too far to the left or right.)

To do this, place the bridge about where you think it needs to go. On some old guitars there is a lot of scuffing and minor scratching in the area where it used to be. Once the guitar is in tune, check the note and the harmonic at the twelfth fret. On your bridge you only do the first and sixth strings. You will need to loosen the strings in order to move the bridge, and only move it a little bit at a time if the harmonic and the note are close. Then tighten up the string or strings on the side of the bridge you are adjusting and check the harmonic and note at the twelfth fret again. And after each step check the tuning again.

Use an electronic tuner that shows flat or sharp and can pick up the harmonics as well.

If the note is sharper (higher in pitch) than the harmonic, move the bridge down toward the tailpiece. If the note is flatter (lower in pitch) than the harmonic, move the bridge up toward the neck of the guitar. When you move the bridge, move it one side at a time, and work on getting either the sixth or the first string set first. When I say move the bridge, I am talking about moving it a sixteenth of an inch or so at a time. This is a time-consuming process so you need to give yourself a long time and a lot of breaks the first time you try this. It can be very frustrating at first, but as your ear develops, it gets a lot easier.

Oh, and of course, changing the height of the bridge will also affect intonation. If you lower the action of the strings, you may find that you need to re-do your intonation. You also will need to re-do intonation if you switch from light to medium strings and vice versa. All in all, if you can't get your guitar to sound properly in tune, the bridge probably is misaligned.

Nuuska pointed out, that intonation is also slightly affected also by pickup height, so in case you would change the pickup height or the pickup polepieces height you should again check the intonation, means you need to shift the bridge maybe a tiny bit again. Reason is that the magnets of some pickups pull the strings towards the pickup, the more the closer they are, so the string would sound a tiny bit out of tune. Hence moving the bridge very slightly would compensate for that effect. In post #19 Walter points out that this is not a general rule however.

In any case, afterwards mark the bridge position somehow so that you have a faster process next time you change strings or you clean the guitar. If it is not a brand new guitar you could use a needle and scratch very lightly the top at the 4 corners only (just like a few dots), so that it doesn't damage the lacquer but still you can see the scratch with a light.

Maybe one more tip: Before changing strings on a guitar with a floating bridge it is always a good idea before you remove any strings to mark the position with some (low stick) tape like in this picture:

1610718736767.png


Ralf
 
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Guildedagain

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Wow, the pics remind me of the old Richie Flieger book Complete Guide to Guitar and Amp Maintenance that I've been reading and re-reading since the 1990's.
 

cupric

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Thanks Ralf, a much better answer then I had in mind!
This is my first Bigsby equipped guitar. I no longer live in a area were I can find a guitar tech or Luthier. I have to try and set up my new guitars myself. I lived pretty close to you for most of my life. Their were several choices for ways to get a set up. All within driving distance. I had one of the best Guild guys in New England, and we are good friends. Unfortunately, he is 2500 miles away from me now.
I hope that people here on this forum would let me know if I post something out of the ordinary. If my questions are too grequent, or out of the scope of this forum purpose, I will certainly understand. I enjoy this platform immensely, and it's a great place to learn.
Thank you everyone, especially Ralf, for your help and knowledge.
Ray
 

Guildedagain

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I usually lift all the strings on the bass or treble side at pitch to slide the bridge a little as needed.

When I have it right, I put a few light pencil marks around it, don't gouge the wood.

Speaking of gouging, the adjustment screws can travel downward through the base of old archtop bridges while trying to adjust action up or down, and they will protrude down through the base just enough to inflict massive damage to the top as you're sliding the bridge around to position it, so always check the base and make sure the typically brass threads aren't coming through the bottom.

Multiple times over the years I've seen an old archtop with telltale zig zags in the top. Those aren't from sliding the bridge around, they're from the adjustment screws sticking out the bottom of the bridge.

In a way, it was good for me to end up with an SF-4 instead of a III because I like a fixed bridge with adjustable intonation, also thankful I don't have to deal with Guildsby issues, the harp is very cool. The guitar is ostentatious enough just as it is and I can concentrate on playing instead of trying to get intonation.

I usually will not suffer a guitar that will not intonate properly to the point of causing playing issues (called too much tuning and retuning and not enough playing) and I will get rid of it.

I suppose you could find a harp tailpiece and make it a SF III-II conversion, although those usually have wooden bridges. Different tone, woodier? ;]
 
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bobouz

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Ray, you may recall that I have the exact same guitar as yours, but the Bigsby was swapped out for a harp tailpiece before I bought it. The bridge is identical to yours, and it too is set near the bottom of it’s adjustment. The neck is dead on straight, and there’s nothing to indicate that the neck joint has shifted. The action is set low & right where I want it, so all is well.

I think our two examples may indicate that during this particular era, the SF-III was built with a somewhat low-angled neck set. I own a Gibson Les Paul Special with a similarly low-angled neck set, which I purchased new - so it’s not a unique phenomenon. Personally, I don’t see this as a problem (especially compared to a saddle having to ride high due to a sinking top!). If I ever felt the need to lower the saddle on either of these guitars, I’d simply file the two ends of the saddle base (where they rest on the bridge screws), or alternatively file the slots lower - or modify & adapt another bridge/saddle.

Now I say all of this from the perspective of someone who’s not dealing with a Bigsby (never have owned one & don’t need it). If you too would like to simplify the equation & go with a harp tailpiece, the Starfire harp unit currently being sold by Guild might be an easy fit - check out their website.

Best of luck with this & hope it all works out to your satisfaction.
 
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SFIV1967

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I hope that people here on this forum would let me know if I post something out of the ordinary.
I don't think you ever asked anything "out of the ordinary"! Most things are always interesting questions as probably many here have the same questions or issues.
And a basic set-up of a guitar is really no magic if you follow certain descriptions and procedures. Feel free to ask anytime!

...the Starfire harp unit currently being sold by Guild might be an easy fit - check out their website.
As far as I know the 3 monting holes would not match between the Guildsby and the harp tailpiece, so you would have to drill new holes. No big issue but many don't like changing the holes. But certainly if one does not need/like the Guildsby that is an option to change to a harp tailpiece, otherwise it's also possible to sell the guitar and buy another one with harp tailpiece if that is prefered.

Ralf
 

Guildedagain

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The harp really is a no fuss piece. I had Bigsby envy and was thinking about a B7 for the SF-4, but now realize it would just make the guitar bigger, possibly catch on things and once recovered from using a wang bar all the time, you seemingly live without it just fine.

Then there's the string bending. Will the guitar drop in pitch if you do huge bends?

That's something you can fix on a Strat by carefully calibrating the back springs, but if it's set and can't be calibrated, then I'm out. Too many bends in my repertoire, some that won't work if you don't have a firm anchor for the strings.
 

Nuuska

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Ralf's post - #5 - is almost perfect - excellent description with nice illustrations. 🥰

BUT - there is one very small detail, where I disagree - I'm ready to hear opposite - intonation is affected also by pickup height - so methinks one should adjust the pups before final intonation adjustment. I know this is very very fine tuning - but it is still there - the magnets of pups pull the strings the more the closer they are - and that affects more fretting at 12th than cowboy chords.
 

cupric

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Thank you all for the information and instruction. I'll let you know how it ends up. I've followed Ralf's instructions and I believe it's made a difference. A few things came up and I haven't completed everything. But I'm taking my time and getting familiar with the Guildsby. Really appreciate you all!
Ray
 

SFIV1967

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BUT - there is one very small detail, where I disagree - I'm ready to hear opposite - intonation is affected also by pickup height - so methinks one should adjust the pups before final intonation adjustment. I know this is very very fine tuning - but it is still there - the magnets of pups pull the strings the more the closer they are - and that affects more fretting at 12th than cowboy chords.
Very good point! In general I tried taking Ray's "fear" of adjustments away by telling him it is the same basic procedure like on an acoustic guitar, but yes, after the pickups are dialed in a final view on intonation makes that setup perfect! Let me add your advise to my post #5.

Ralf
 
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SFIV1967

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Also, Ralf, thanks for an awesome explanation of how to setup a guitar!
I had to edit that post #5 a few times as some things (like Nuuska pointed out) were not correctly described. So I just changed a few incorrect terms again.
Ralf
 

Nuuska

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If anybody who fails to follow that detailled instruction in post # 5 complains about anything - I'll be happy to provide a mirror - or call her/him with words of my choise 😅

Well done Ralf
 

Walter Broes

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BUT - there is one very small detail, where I disagree - I'm ready to hear opposite - intonation is affected also by pickup height - so methinks one should adjust the pups before final intonation adjustment. I know this is very very fine tuning - but it is still there - the magnets of pups pull the strings the more the closer they are - and that affects more fretting at 12th than cowboy chords.
That's not a general rule at all. It applies to most traditional Fender pickups and some other guitars with pickups with actual magnets for poles. And then only if you don't know what you're doing and you're adjusting the pickups (or poles, in the case of Dynasonic or Staple pickups) too close to the string.

With pickups with magnets under the coil, i.e. gibson, guild and gretsch style humbuckers, P90's and similar, etc...., you can adjust the pickups really close to the string without the magnets interfering with the strings.
 
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