Starfire III (1966) pickup phase situation

[Guildedlily]

Hi Fam

I was thinking about the middle position thing on my SF III.

I know they are designed to be out of phase, but I'm curious to know what they sound like in phase. Perhaps they don't sound great that way which was why they put them out of phase.

Has anyone tried them in phase? Would I accomplish this by just turning one of the pups around, or is it a rewiring thing?

I was also wondering about a little electronic mod to enable me to switch them in and out of phase, but this obvs depends on whether the in-phase tone is worth having at all.

Thanks kids

 

[matsickma]

I'm not sure they are designed to be out of phase. Guild is pretty inconsistent about such things.
In phase sounds like a blend of both so rather than the nazel sound it's a full sound. You actually might want that tone more often than the out of phase tone. I typically minimize the full out of phase tone by adjusting one of the pickup volume knobs down a bit.

To put them in phase reverse the wires on one of the pickups. If you want both options you can add a POT with push /pull switch to flip the wiring 180 degrees. If the guitar is a relic no concerns but if a closet vintage guitar any mods that are non reversible will reduce the value of the guitar so save the old POT to return it to stock if you sell it. If it is a real beater the easiest approach is adding a mini switch.

So for now to check it out flip the wires that are soldered on to one if the pickups to get both in phase.
M

 

[Default]

They weren't designed to be out of phase anymore that Gibson were. As a matter of fact, they were chasing that bass heavy jazz tone from the 50-60s, not a thin tone.

 

[Walter Broes]

Has anyone tried them in phase? Would I accomplish this by just turning one of the pups around, or is it a rewiring thing?

I was also wondering about a little electronic mod to enable me to switch them in and out of phase, but this obvs depends on whether the in-phase tone is worth having at all.

Thanks kids

as the others said, not designed to be OOP.

and as Matsickma said, reversing the wires at the pickup end will flip the phase. Fifteen minute job including taking off the pickguard and putting it back on.

You could install a push-pull pot to reverse the phase when you want to, but be warned that working on hollowbody electronics is not what I'd describe as "a good time"

 

[Guildedlily]

I'm not sure they are designed to be out of phase. Guild is pretty inconsistent about such things.
In phase sounds like a blend of both so rather than the nazel sound it's a full sound. You actually might want that tone more often than the out of phase tone. I typically minimize the full out of phase tone by adjusting one of the pickup volume knobs down a bit.

To put them in phase reverse the wires on one of the pickups. If you want both options you can add a POT with push /pull switch to flip the wiring 180 degrees. If the guitar is a relic no concerns but if a closet vintage guitar any mods that are non reversible will reduce the value of the guitar so save the old POT to return it to stock if you sell it. If it is a real beater the easiest approach is adding a mini switch.

So for now to check it out flip the wires that are soldered on to one if the pickups to get both in phase.
M

Total beater - see pic.

So you're saying the phase was just random from factory? Lots of mistakes made? Yeah, I like your idea of just switching the wires and trying it out.

I was thinking exactly that about the pot, but making sure it was reversible. I never use the middle position at the moment, but you never know when recording when you want something different...

So you mean rewire one pot - say the tone on bridge pup to also switch the phase with a push/pull.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Guildedlily]

They weren't designed to be out of phase anymore that Gibson were. As a matter of fact, they were chasing that bass heavy jazz tone from the 50-60s, not a thin tone.

So if they weren't designed that way... how come they're oop? Was it just errors? I've heard other people say the standard is OOP. Are you saying someone rewired them wrong?

 

[Guildedlily]

as the others said, not designed to be OOP.

and as Matsickma said, reversing the wires at the pickup end will flip the phase. Fifteen minute job including taking off the pickguard and putting it back on.

You could install a push-pull pot to reverse the phase when you want to, but be warned that working on hollowbody electronics is not what I'd describe as "a good time"

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm not going to mess around adding pots to a totally original 56 year old guitar... maybe design an app and be able to switch from my phone.

 

[BradHK]

Total beater - see pic.

So you're saying the phase was just random from factory? Lots of mistakes made? Yeah, I like your idea of just switching the wires and trying it out.

I was thinking exactly that about the pot, but making sure it was reversible. I never use the middle position at the moment, but you never know when recording when you want something different...

So you mean rewire one pot - say the tone on bridge pup to also switch the phase with a push/pull.

Thanks for the advice!

Total beater? I am assuming that was a joke as that is a really nice looking Starfire III! Beautiful guitar and more pics are always better!

 

[Guildedlily]

Total beater? I am assuming that was a joke as that is a really nice looking Starfire III! Beautiful guitar and more pics are always better!

 

[Default]

I don't believe phase was a thing until Peter Green. You also have to understand that not every employee was a luthier or a musician. It didn't matter as long as it worked, and demand for guitars was insanely high. As long as it worked, it was good. At least it wasn't Gretch, where you couldn't keep the neck on.

 

[matsickma]

On your guitar it is very easy to "fix" the phase. Guild pickups have little tabs that connect the pickup to the wiring. It is a nice feature that makes reversing the phase quickly. Walter's described the job concisely. If this is your first time working with Guild pickups you may not have realized that Guild pups have the tabs.

Did you experiment with adjusting the volume of the neck OR bridge volume pickup to see if you like the change in tone? Basically backing off the volume on one of the pickups will minimize the frequency "subtraction" occuring at the lower frequencies. You will notice a distinct change in low frequency response.
M

 

[Guildedlily]

On your guitar it is very easy to "fix" the phase. Guild pickups have little tabs that connect the pickup to the wiring. It is a nice feature that makes reversing the phase quickly. Walter's described the job concisely. If this is your first time working with Guild pickups you may not have realized that Guild pups have the tabs.

Did you experiment with adjusting the volume of the neck OR bridge volume pickup to see if you like the change in tone? Basically backing off the volume on one of the pickups will minimize the frequency "subtraction" occuring at the lower frequencies. You will notice a distinct change in low frequency response.
M

Wow, this is cool info!
Who is Walter, and where does he describe the tab job?

 

[Walter Broes]

Take the pickguard off, unscrew the neck pickup surround from the guitar and look at the underside of the pickup. You'll see it has a tab, a bracket on the bottom. Carefully unsolder the wires coming out of the pickup and reverse them going to the tab, and you're done. It'll make sense when you see it.

 

[Walter Broes]

I don't believe phase was a thing until Peter Green. You also have to understand that not every employee was a luthier or a musician. It didn't matter as long as it worked, and demand for guitars was insanely high. As long as it worked, it was good. At least it wasn't Gretch, where you couldn't keep the neck on.

Oh, it was, and Peter Green got his inspiration from the great 50's and early 60's blues players using out of phase wired guitars and the different shades of out-of-phaseness you get when you adjust pickup volumes.

Gibson's triple pickup ES-5 had one pickup out of phase, usually the bridge pickup, sometimes the middle pickup. T-Bone Walker played one, and got a great variaton of tones out of it, as did Jimmy Nolen. (Who used an ES-5 in Johnny Otis' band, listen to "hand jive" or "casting my spell")

Gibson's stereo thinlines (ES345 and 355) have the pickups out of phase in the middle switch position - people mistakenly assume BB King got his 355 from nasally thin to fat and big by using the varitone switch, but if you've seen him onstage or on video you'll see he's constantly adjusting his pickup volumes - that phase trick.
Hearing the obvious BB influence on Peter Green's playing, it seems logical that's where he got the idea...

 

[matsickma]

It's often an aberration that leads to a unique and unexpected sonic tone. The famous story of a amp guitar speaker being torn before a gig leading to the fuzz tone, "in between" position on a Strat 3-way pickup selector switch, out-of-phase pickups, counter wound bobbins, overdriving tube amps pleasant harmonic distortion, feedback ...
Quality control issues and hand made parts often led to these inconsistencies and mistakes that turned out to sound cool. Similarities to scientific accidentally discoveries.
M

 

[GAD]

I thought Peter Green's guitar was OOP because a tech worked on the pickups and put one of them in backwards.

Internet lore?

 

[Walter Broes]

Pre-internet lore even, I think!
In any case, I think if that guitar didn't (accidentally?) come from the factory OOP and the story that a "repair guy" gave it back to Green that way is correct, he must have at least had a "Eureka!" moment with it. (As quite a few of his heroes used purposely/factory OOP Gibson models to their advantage..)

What contributed to the internet lore about the Green LP was the turned-around-pickup and a lot of people assuming that thát is what caused it to be OOP.

Truth is that a Gibson bucker needs to be opened up and have the magnet flipped for phase reversal : the braided shield lead wire on a typical Gibson pickup prevents you from reversing the leads on it, or you'd be soldering the cover ground to the pot's "hot" lug, and that doesn't work. Simply reversing the pickup in the surround doesn't change the phase on it.

 

[Default]

Oh, it was, and Peter Green got his inspiration from the great 50's and early 60's blues players using out of phase wired guitars and the different shades of out-of-phaseness you get when you adjust pickup volumes.

Gibson's triple pickup ES-5 had one pickup out of phase, usually the bridge pickup, sometimes the middle pickup. T-Bone Walker played one, and got a great variaton of tones out of it, as did Jimmy Nolen. (Who used an ES-5 in Johnny Otis' band, listen to "hand jive" or "casting my spell")

Gibson's stereo thinlines (ES345 and 355) have the pickups out of phase in the middle switch position - people mistakenly assume BB King got his 355 from nasally thin to fat and big by using the varitone switch, but if you've seen him onstage or on video you'll see he's constantly adjusting his pickup volumes - that phase trick.
Hearing the obvious BB influence on Peter Green's playing, it seems logical that's where he got the idea...

To your mainstream player, probably not, and to your manufacturer and assembly worker, not at all a thing. I was referring to the industrial process, not whatever a bunch of weirdos that liked.

 

[Walter Broes]

To your mainstream player, probably not, and to your manufacturer and assembly worker, not at all a thing. I was referring to the industrial process, not whatever a bunch of weirdos that liked.

I get what you're saying, and I'm probably a little clumsy saying what I want to get across - you do come across quite a few kays, Harmonies, Silvertones (and the odd Guild) that has pickups that were wired out of phase accidentally at the factory b/c of what you're saying - "out of whàt?!?"...."huh? They both work, don't they?!"

But Gibson was actually pretty creative with wiring at a certain point, and guitars like the ES5 (later Switchmaster), and the triple pickup Les Paul Customs and SG Customs had a pickup that was out of phase by design - as a way to get more/different sounds out of the pickups and guitars they were building, and with fat sounding pickups like P90's and Gibson humbuckers, it actually works and makes for some useable tones.

 

[Default]

I doubt Guild bothered with that, particularly with the push to get product out the door. My SFIll's pickup covers weren't even soldered to the baseplate.
I'm always looking at the manufacturing angle, rather than use in the real world.