Stacked Tone Pots on 1960 X-175?

[motopsyche]

Greetings, tech heads,

I just finished cleaning and reinstalling the harness on a 1960 X-175 Manhattan (#13567) with Franz pups I snagged on ebay. I was curious to find concentric stacked tone pots; that is, each shaft connects through two pots, each with separate lugs and wires. I'd love to know the function and wiring logic of the two pots. I also noticed that one tone stack had two capacitors wired in, while the other only had one. Again, anyone know the reason?

Also, the pots have solid shafts, and the knobs that came with the guitar are exactly like those on a Fender Jaguar or Jazz Bass. Each uses a slot-head set screw to tighten. Did Guild ever use these? If not, what knobs were likely fitted on this guitar, and did they use set screws for solid shafts?

The wiring appears to be stock and undisturbed. The pots were very sluggish, but they're turning much better after shooting with cleaner/lubricant. We'll see if there are any dropouts in the tone or volume pots when I have it up and running later today.

Many thanks for the help.

Bill
Indianapolis

1957 Guild CA-100
1960 Guild T-100DPB
1960 Guild X-175 Manhattan
1962 Guild Starfire III
1963 Guild X-175 Manhattan
1964 Guild Starfire III
1966 Guild Starfire V
1967 Guild Starfire XII

 

[teleharmonium]

I don't know, but it's very interesting ! I believe (if I am remembering correctly) I have seen a similar arrangment on the Martin electric guitars that came with DeArmond wiring harnesses and pickups in the characteristic metal gooseneck style sleeves.

 

[john_kidder]

Guild had stacked bass/treble tone pots on some electro-acoustic flattops in the '80s. Might be the same architecture?

 

[Walter Broes]

Hey Bill, so you got her home, that's nice.

I've heard about those from another X175 owner in Holland. I'm too electronics-stupid to even have a concept of what they're for, but it's highly likely they're original to the guitar.

I've seen them in single coil Gretsch guitars too btw.

 

[hansmoust]

Greetings, tech heads,

I just finished cleaning and reinstalling the harness on a 1960 X-175 Manhattan (#13567) with Franz pups I snagged on ebay. I was curious to find concentric stacked tone pots; that is, each shaft connects through two pots, each with separate lugs and wires. I'd love to know the function and wiring logic of the two pots. I also noticed that one tone stack had two capacitors wired in, while the other only had one. Again, anyone know the reason?

Hello Bill,

Those pots were pretty standard during that particular period. I'm not a big fan of them though. I guess at that time it gave them control over the sound they were looking for.

Also, the pots have solid shafts, and the knobs that came with the guitar are exactly like those on a Fender Jaguar or Jazz Bass. Each uses a slot-head set screw to tighten. Did Guild ever use these? If not, what knobs were likely fitted on this guitar, and did they use set screws for solid shafts?

I've never seen those knobs on a Guild guitar and I think they're not original. I've seen plenty of guitars from this period that had pots with solid shafts and somehow they managed to fit the knobs that were designed for knurled shafts on them. It's not a great fit though and people do often loose them. Every once in a while I come across knobs that are glued in place. The 'solid shaft' pots were probably leftover from the 'stove knob' period.

For those who have never seen these stacked pots, here's a photo that shows the tone pots from a wiring harness from 1961. As you can see, these already have knurled shafts. Don't you love that beautiful orange cloth wire!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[motopsyche]

Many thanks to everyone for the enlightenment. Hans, I'm interested to know what it is about the stacked tone pots you don't care for. What are you hearing, or is it reliability?

Like the 1959 and 1960 T-100s I have with Franz pups, the tone of this X-175 gets dark in a hurry as you roll off the volume. Seems a good candidate for a treble bleed capacitor.

Funny thing about the Fender knobs--they're really functional, very easy to turn and easy to tell the position by looking at the white stripe. Somehow they look at home on this guitar.

When I figure out how to post pics to the forum, I'll be glad to share.

Thanks, again!

Bill

 

[hansmoust]

Hans, I'm interested to know what it is about the stacked tone pots you don't care for. What are you hearing, or is it reliability?

Hello again Bill,

It's just the amount of control I have over my sound. Like you said, it gets 'dark' really quick, somewhat 'choked' (as in not being able to breath properly) and most of the settings are too 'muddy' to my ears. I have a couple of X-350/375s with the push button pickup selector switches. Some of the settings have a similar 'muffled/no highs' pre-set sound not unlike the 'dark' fingerboard pickup setting on an original '50s Telecaster. I have no idea what that was all about but I guess somebody must have liked it!
I'm one of those people who like a fair amount of 'brightness'. I would rather have no tone control at all and if it's too bright I can adjust it on my amp.

Funny thing about the Fender knobs--they're really functional, very easy to turn and easy to tell the position by looking at the white stripe. Somehow they look at home on this guitar.

If it works well for you I see no reason why you should change it. I'm not that fanatic about these things.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[motopsyche]

Hans,

Many thanks for sharing that. I've often wondered about the settings available on the push-button Guilds. Along with the "bass" position on the early Teles and the infamous "mud" switches on many Gretsches, we can only wonder to what purpose, if any, early players actually used those settings.

Walter, I'm curious to know if you play your X-175 with the volume up full on the Seatsniffer live recordings on Youtube. You and Dave Gonzales of the Paladins get such great Rockabilly tones from your Franz-equipped Guilds. What else do you have in the signal path?

I did experience a similar darkening up of the tone when rolling back the volume knobs on my '66 Starfire V with humbuckers. I soldered in a small "treble bleed" cap on each tone pot, and it really made a difference, retaining tonal brightness as volume is rolled back. I was very pleased with the result.

Many thanks, all!

Bill Stagg

 

[Walter Broes]

Hey Bill, thanks man, that's very nice of you to say.

Yes, I almost always have the volume full up. When I have both pickups on, I might roll back the neck or bridge pickup just a hair depending on the tune.
When I'm not the front guy singing, and I'm backing someone else up on guitar, I'm on the volume controls a little more, especially if it's a blues thing.

I don't like treble bleed caps at all - I guess I'm one of the few people who actually like the treble rolloff. I like the effect of having a slightly darker tone for rhythm and softer fills, and getting that treble and attack back when it's time to solo and be heard above the band.
Every guitar with a treble bleed cap I've played felt weird and unnatural, and feels as if the guitar actually loses low end and mid when I turn down, but that's just me I guess.

My rig is pretty simple, I have a few pedals with me, but 70% of the time they're off, and I might as well be plugged straight into the amp. I do have the reverb on usually - and have found that Franz pickups *love* spring reverb - it smooths out the potentially unforgiving treble of the pickups, while somehow at the same time enhancing it.
Dave G. is obviously a reverb nut that way - he usually plugs into a Fender standalone reverb unit set for almost "surf".

And the Franz equipped guitars I have definitely don't like very modern amps, master volumes, overdrive pedals, etc...
As I've said ad nauseam on this forum, all the Franz pickups I have are potted (dipped in wax) to combat microphonic feedback, they're pretty useless at band volumes otherwise.


There's one thing you can try with your Manhattan if you have the time and patience for it : make up a Gibson 50's style wiring harness for it.
I'm not too technical, but the way vintage Guilds are wired is what people call "decoupled" : you can turn down either pickup all the way in dual pickup mode without losing the other.
This involves reversing the wiring on the pot, compared to the standard way of doing things, but one major drawback of this wiring scheme is that the pots lose high frequencies even faster than with a Gibson style scheme - worth a try to reverse it.