I thought this ad was pretty funny! And pretty brazen! I wonder if one them is really a Guild or if it's two Takamines?
walrus
walrus
Speaking of counterfeit Guilds...
- Thread starter walrus
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wileypickett
Enlightened Member
I have the Guild-ish Takamine 12-string brother to those guitars and I can tell you that the difference is more than the price!
It's a funny ad -- I always assumed that those early Takamine Guild and Martin copies were ones that they surreptitiously snuck onto the marketplace. But it appears they were marketed as lookalike budget versions of the models they copied. Surprised to learn that.
People refer to them as "lawsuit guitars" -- did Guild or Martin actually file lawsuits, or cease-and-desist letters, I wonder?
Here's one of their Martin 12-string copies for sale in Providence, RI:
It's a funny ad -- I always assumed that those early Takamine Guild and Martin copies were ones that they surreptitiously snuck onto the marketplace. But it appears they were marketed as lookalike budget versions of the models they copied. Surprised to learn that.
People refer to them as "lawsuit guitars" -- did Guild or Martin actually file lawsuits, or cease-and-desist letters, I wonder?
Here's one of their Martin 12-string copies for sale in Providence, RI:
Takamine 12 String Acoustic Guitar - musical instruments - by owner...
Model F400S With Case Body Shape: Dreadnought 12-String Rosette: Top: Solid Spruce Inlays: Dots Back: Rosewood Sides: Rosewood Fingerboard: Rosewood Electronics: None Tuners: Gold Plated
providence.craigslist.org
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
And here's Hohner trying to get into the act:
Hohner HG730 vintage - musical instruments - by owner - sale
This guitar sounds incredible. Nice top end and bass response. Spruce top, 3-piece rosewood back and sides, bound fretboard, double bound body, mother of pearl inlays. Handmade in Japan. Some light...
boston.craigslist.org
Boy, that sure *is* brazen! Although, I must say, that's the kind of advertising I like! Go for the jugular!
Those Tak F-512 copies fetch pretty good prices these days, too. Having said that, I'm sure Glenn's right about the comparison... If you're gonna' take on the king (F-512), you better know what you're doing! Anyway, certainly good for a chuckle!
Those Tak F-512 copies fetch pretty good prices these days, too. Having said that, I'm sure Glenn's right about the comparison... If you're gonna' take on the king (F-512), you better know what you're doing! Anyway, certainly good for a chuckle!
The Guilds of Grot
Enlightened Member
I assume everyone has noticed they even copied Guild's advertisement style and font.
^ No, didn't know that, Grot!! Boy, they really were loaded for bear there.
fronobulax
Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
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Tangential comments.
Not all "lawsuit guitars" were actually involved in litigation. The term seems to have evolved to mean something like "blatant copy".
Since words are important, the definition of counterfeit includes an intent to deceive.
Many of these copies are just that, copies. The intent was not to have a buyer buy one thinking they were getting a Guild. The intent was to have a buyer buy one instead of a Guild.
Not all "lawsuit guitars" were actually involved in litigation. The term seems to have evolved to mean something like "blatant copy".
Since words are important, the definition of counterfeit includes an intent to deceive.
Many of these copies are just that, copies. The intent was not to have a buyer buy one thinking they were getting a Guild. The intent was to have a buyer buy one instead of a Guild.
Opsimath
Senior Member
Is that the same guy from the ad in the Jimmy Page guitar thread?I assume everyone has noticed they even copied Guild's advertisement style and font.
I had a Takamine F340S for a while, and it was their Martin D18 clone. The "S" in this case stood for solid top (sides and back were laminated), and there was a version with no "S" that had a laminated top. It looked just like a D18, and was actually a surprisingly good guitar.I have the Guild-ish Takamine 12-string brother to those guitars and I can tell you that the difference is more than the price!
It's a funny ad -- I always assumed that those early Takamine Guild and Martin copies were ones that they surreptitiously snuck onto the marketplace. But it appears they were marketed as lookalike budget versions of the models they copied. Surprised to learn that.
People refer to them as "lawsuit guitars" -- did Guild or Martin actually file lawsuits, or cease-and-desist letters, I wonder?
Here's one of their Martin 12-string copies for sale in Providence, RI:
Takamine 12 String Acoustic Guitar - musical instruments - by owner...
Model F400S With Case Body Shape: Dreadnought 12-String Rosette: Top: Solid Spruce Inlays: Dots Back: Rosewood Sides: Rosewood Fingerboard: Rosewood Electronics: None Tuners: Gold Platedprovidence.craigslist.org
I heard somewhere that there weren't any actual lawsuits involved with these guitars, but there were quite a few cease and desist letters I'm sure. Takamine still makes this model, but post '70s examples have their traditional headstock.
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Didn’t Gibson sue Ibanez? I’m too lazy to look it up.
SFIV1967
Venerated Member
The ad shows:
"The Guild (on the left) costs about $850 and is well worth it.
The Takamine about $225.
And worth a lot more."
Ralf
Guildedagain
Enlightened Member
Yes, Fender and Gibson both had some sort of cease and desist order, but instead, Fender lost the Fullerton plant buying the company back from CBS and moved all production to Japan for about 2 years, around 1982.
Gibson struck a similar deal and the Orvilles and Orville by Gibsons (USA pickups) were born.
Other companies kept copying like crazy, as we all know.
The term lawsuit is now widely applied to just about any copy guitar to boost the price somehow. It's a legend based thing.
Did Martin ever threaten to sue Tak for the blatant copies?
I don't know.
There was a beat up F-365 or something like that copy of a Guild floating around this area on CL for a while. I'd seen it and played it at a pawn shop it had been dropped and broken, neck block shifted badly, as you can expect it played terrible and sounded even worse.
Somebody bought it and then spent a year embarrassing himself advertising on CL as "better than a Guild", in miserable condition, it was still better.
It's all legend, just pure legend.
Gibson struck a similar deal and the Orvilles and Orville by Gibsons (USA pickups) were born.
Other companies kept copying like crazy, as we all know.
The term lawsuit is now widely applied to just about any copy guitar to boost the price somehow. It's a legend based thing.
Did Martin ever threaten to sue Tak for the blatant copies?
I don't know.
There was a beat up F-365 or something like that copy of a Guild floating around this area on CL for a while. I'd seen it and played it at a pawn shop it had been dropped and broken, neck block shifted badly, as you can expect it played terrible and sounded even worse.
Somebody bought it and then spent a year embarrassing himself advertising on CL as "better than a Guild", in miserable condition, it was still better.
It's all legend, just pure legend.
merlin6666
Senior Member
Yes I think it was mainly about electric guitars. Keep in mind that in the 70s both Fender and Gibson were owned by other corporations and quality of their instruments was low. The Japanese clones were way better at a lower price point. I still cherish my mid 70s Ibanez Telecaster Deluxe copy. Even on the acoustic side when I bought my first "good" guitar I picked a Suzuki D42 copy over the three Martin D18s in the store that were just marginally more expensive, as it just seemed to sound better to my untrained ear. Of course a poor decision in hindsight as the D18s would have several times the value of it now. But I still have a soft spot for old Japanese guitars.
Yes, in 1977.
https://www.premierguitar.com/pro-advice/trash-or-treasure/ibanez-lawsuit-les-paul
I know they also sued PRS.
Very authentic lawsuits, too!
walrus
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
The Takamine F512 copy is not bad. (I still have it.) But it's for sure a few miles shy of the mark in comparison with the original.
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Cougar
Enlightened Member
Early on I had a Tak GJ72CE (below). It's what motivated me to get a Guild 12-string.
I still have my Takamini, but about it's 20th birthday the bridge exploded while I was playing, leaving me with not even one string left to play... Figure you're on stage when it happens, and that you didn't bring/didn't have a spare guitar !!! (I was doing live work still). Ever since then, my opinion on the make has lowered and lowered...BTW the bridge was directly copied from Lowden (not the wood choosing hopefully I'd bet).
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