Saddle Jam

[F312]

First time changing the strings on my DV52 since a neck reset, new bone nut and saddle. Seems my saddle is jammed in and wondering if there are any tricks to get it out? I also notice the saddle is higher on the treble side, shouldn't it be higher on the bass side?

Ralph

 

[adorshki]

First time changing the strings on my DV52 since a neck reset, new bone nut and saddle. Seems my saddle is jammed in and wondering if there are any tricks to get it out? I also notice the saddle is higher on the treble side, shouldn't it be higher on the bass side?

Ralph

Can't recall any "tricks", sounds like it might be a tad too thick because it's supposed to come out fairly easily.
Even if "tight", should come out with pliers suitably cushioned with something to prevent gouging, for example.
Even saw a report attributed to New Hartford's tech support that it could be thin enough to just drop out(!) according to their build tolerances, although I was always kind of skeptical about that.
Yes normally it's supposed to be higher the bass side.
I wonder if it actually got put in backward?
The saddle's crown profile is supposed to match the fingerboard radius and the lower height on treble side is to ensure the slightly lower action height of the treble E vs the bass E, s/b 1-1.5/64th lower on treble side per Guild Gallery #1, 1997: bass E 5.5-6/64, treble 4.5-5/64.
And assuming a stock setup was desired.

 

[F312]

Can't recall any "tricks", sounds like it might be a tad too thick because it's supposed to come out fairly easily.
Even if "tight", should come out with pliers suitably cushioned with something to prevent gouging, for example.
Even saw a report attributed to New Hartford's tech support that it could be thin enough to just drop out(!) according to their build tolerances, although I was always kind of skeptical about that.
Yes normally it's supposed to be higher the bass side.
I wonder if it actually got put in backward?
The saddle's crown profile is supposed to match the fingerboard radius and the lower height on treble side is to ensure the slightly lower action height of the treble E vs the bass E, s/b 1-1.5/64th lower on treble side per Guild Gallery #1, 1997: bass E 5.5-6/64, treble 4.5-5/64.
And assuming a stock setup was desired.

I agree, they should all just about fall out on there own and thought they should be higher on the bass side like all my others. When I ask for the change to bone I ask for a compensated saddle but he must have forgotten. I have a bone compensated saddle from Guild. I'm putting it in soon as I get the old one out. I thought I might find a better way before I put the channellocks to it.

Ralph

 

[GardMan]

Are you sure the saddle is higher on the treble side? Sometimes Guild BRIDGES are thinner on the treble side than the bass side (I have seen >1/32" difference), and this can make the saddle APPEAR to be higher on the treble side because more of the saddle is showing above the bridge.

I have always heard the saddle should be loose enough that it can be easily removed, but tight enough that it DOESN'T fall out when the unstrung guitar is turned over...

When I have encountered stuck saddles, I first try to grip them with my fingernails, and see if I can rock the saddle out. Next, I would try to grip the saddle with needle nose pliers or my fishing forceps (AKA "hemostats;" my fishing bag hangs on a wall close to my workbench, so the forceps are convenient to grab). Grab a thick portion of the saddle at one end away from where the strings cross (don't want to chip the saddle)... I sometimes try to add a little rocking motion (hard to do when the saddle is tight). If the saddle is really low and I can't get a purchase with pliers or forceps, I will sometimes use a pair of small diagonal wire cutters, gripping one end of the saddle RIGHT UP AGINST THE BRIDGE... but be VERY CAREFUL... use only enough closing force to grip the saddle, w/o actually chipping or nicking it (I have never damaged a saddle doing this, but the potential is there).

When I got my DV-72MK, the saddle was so tight that it wasn't even sitting down into the slot, but was wedged tight against the sides of the slot. I didn't realize this at first, and ruined* TWO Bob Colosi saddle by sanding them to match the height of the old saddle... when properly installed, they were TOO LOW, because the old saddle itself was too short. Embarassing that it took two saddles to figure this out, but it never occurred to me that the old saddle didn't reach the bottom of the saddle slot.

*I was able to re-purpose one the too short saddles to another Guild that needed a shorter saddle.

 

[AcornHouse]

What happens with a "jammed" saddle, is that the wood of the bridge has swelled. (Occasionally you'll encounter a saddle that's been glued in, but that's someone who doesn't know better, not the factory.) Since the saddle is easily replaceable, but the bridge is not (well, not easily), you want to protect the bridge surface at all costs. put something thin, but sturdy, around the saddle, grab the saddle with pliers, and slowly lever it out, again, being careful not to dig into the wood of the bridge, only on the guard.

 

[adorshki]

Are you sure the saddle is higher on the treble side? Sometimes Guild BRIDGES are thinner on the treble side than the bass side (I have seen >1/32" difference), and this can make the saddle APPEAR to be higher on the treble side because more of the saddle is showing above the bridge.

All 3 of mine are thinner on the treble side and I assumed this was to accommodate the lower action height spec'd on that side while still allowing a decent height of saddle itself.
But I realize now it may have varied by build era, let alone the potential for previous owners to have shaved 'em.
Something else just occurred to me:
If it's one of those DV's that got a 1-3/4" nut (happened around '93-'95), then it's possible it has a flatter fretboard as well, and this might also be why saddle appears a bit tall, assuming it was actually matched to the fretboard radius when cut.
Standard radius was announced as 12" in that same '97 Guild Gallery #1, but it was probably the standard for some time prior to that.
@Ralph: If you've got the 1-11/6 nut, then the later compensated saddle is supposed to fit and work well.
(Thinking of fretboard radius)
I recall a couple of reports to that effect, because I've considered it for my D25.

What happens with a "jammed" saddle, is that the wood of the bridge has swelled.

DOH!!
Thanks!

 

[Westerly Wood]

the Br's saddle is jammed, i know i could get it out if i had to. i tend to leave her alone however, old age and all, real ornery guitar.

 

[AcornHouse]

You could always some saddle jelly instead of saddle jam. Tastes just as good!:very_drunk:

 

[F312]

All good advice, I was hoping for that "that was easy" button.

Ralph

 

[fronobulax]

You could always some saddle jelly instead of saddle jam. Tastes just as good!:very_drunk:

But then you need to watch for the seeds...

 

[kakerlak]

You could always some saddle jelly instead of saddle jam. Tastes just as good!:very_drunk:

Are we concerned with preserving saddles?

 

[adorshki]

All good advice, I was hoping for that "that was easy" button.

Ralph

Caution: Graphic content may not be for the squeamish.
Easy button autopsy:

 

[F312]

After using two hands to pull on my saddle, it wouldn't budge, long nose pliers would just snip off and wouldn't hold, even with 3/8" saddle showing. Then out in the tool shed I found a hand seamer 3 1/4 " long and put some tape over the saddle and pulled and it came right out, but let me tell you it was a firm pull. So the new saddles I bought from Guild are 0.125" (3.175mm) and the old saddle is 0.95" (2.413mm) Looks like I have some sanding to do.

Ralph

 

[adorshki]

After using two hands to pull on my saddle, it wouldn't budge, long nose pliers would just snip off and wouldn't hold, even with 3/8" saddle showing. Then out in the tool shed I found a hand seamer 3 1/4 " long and put some tape over the saddle and pulled and it came right out, but let me tell you it was a firm pull. So the new saddles I bought from Guild are 0.125" (3.175mm) and the old saddle is 0.95" (2.413mm) Looks like I have some sanding to do.

Ralph

V-e-e-ery interesting.
Those just happen to be the 2 widths spec'd by Fishman for their AG UST's:
https://www.fishman.com/products/series/ag/ag-series-undersaddle-pickup/
Guild was one of the first to use Fishman back in the day.
I seem to recall that my (Corona) D40 seemed to have a wider saddle than my 2 late Westerlys, and it came with an AG-125. (It definitely has a thicker and taller bridge and saddle than the other 2)
Later I thought maybe I was mistaken but now I realize was just using the English side of a ruler graduated to 32nds and the slight difference in width may not have been visible to me.
But it looks like they've standardized on the .125 saddle width now.
Wonder if that's because of the compensation offset?
I guess if you sand down the backside it'll be maintained?

 

[GardMan]

3/32" was the standard saddle width throughout the Westerly years (and more)... I think Guild moved to compensated 1/8" saddles when in Tacoma, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.

For others who might need 3/32" saddles... Bob Colosi's standard Martin saddles are 3/32" thick (just a shade over, to allow sanding to fit), and can easily be shortened lengthwise and in height to fit most Westerly-era Guilds (at least the half dozen or so of mine that I put them in). Bob gives excellent instructions on sanding and installing them... He doesn't include shortening them lengthwise to fit a Guild... I cut mine with a hobby razor saw and the sand the end smooth. Just make sure the intonation scallop is centered under the 2nd (B) string.

 

[adorshki]

3/32" was the standard saddle width throughout the Westerly years (and more)... I think Guild moved to compensated 1/8" saddles when in Tacoma

Yep, standard compensated saddles introduced in Tacoma (they did appear on some of the early Westerly A/E F"xx"ce's) but don't recall ever seeing the width spec.
Good stuff, thanks!

 

[gjmalcyon]

Oh ... OK ... When you said saddle jam, I thought:

 

[F312]

Finding out just sanding the saddle thiner will change the position of where the string will rest, no matter which way it is sanded, it will tend to be a sharper point on the top. I need a H, 0.450" (11.43mm) W, 0.095" (2.413mm) L, 2.875" (73.025mm). This is on a 1999 DV52. So does anyone have a clue that Guild has changed the specs on different models/years?

Ralph

 

[GardMan]

Ralph,
Bob Colosi's Martin Standard Drop-in saddle can easily be shortened to work for you... I installed half a dozen in my various dreads. Being rather anal, it would take me about 45-60 min to get it fitted to my satisfaction...

Or, if you can send Bob your current saddle, he can copy it, and all it will need is a tiny bit of sanding to thickness and perhaps a little more sanding to get to the height you want. Bob's customer service is excellent, and he could probably turn it around in a week or so (drop him an e-mail for specifics).

 

[F312]

Ralph,
Bob Colosi's Martin Standard Drop-in saddle can easily be shortened to work for you... I installed half a dozen in my various dreads. Being rather anal, it would take me about 45-60 min to get it fitted to my satisfaction...

Or, if you can send Bob your current saddle, he can copy it, and all it will need is a tiny bit of sanding to thickness and perhaps a little more sanding to get to the height you want. Bob's customer service is excellent, and he could probably turn it around in a week or so (drop him an e-mail for specifics).

Nothing wrong with my saddle, I wanted to go to a compensated saddle, would I have to send him the non-compensated saddle?

Ralph