Runout

[Default]

Because of this thread - I had to look at my 1977 F-512 - and sure enough - there is some runout to be seen - now that I pay attention to it . . .

Jim Berns is dead - Westerly is no more - Cordoba is not responsible.

Have I been had? Cheted? Victim of a scam? Should I worry about this? Is my existence doomed?

I hope your existence isn't doomed!
What will happen to the Finnish Sense of Humor thread?

 

[Nuuska]

I hope your existence isn't doomed!
What will happen to the Finnish Sense of Humor thread?

Thank you - with no other reason to keep going anymore - you request gives me hope. Maybe one day I'll get senile enough not to notice the runout - or just say : Runout, Runout, WTF is Runout?

 

[West R Lee]

Back in the day, "bear claw" was considered a defect, so views change along the way

Yes it was, and today, bear claw is desirable. Go figure.

West

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Yes it was, and today, bear claw is desirable. Go figure.

West

I see what you did there!

 

[Br1ck]

Runout bothers me. Bear claw does not. Stripes in the wood does not. Wide grain does not, in fact very tight grain moving to very wide grain is my favorite.

There is a type of wide flame maple that does not look book matched though it is. It's a deal breaker on a mandolin back for me. Yet, a random one piece maple back where the figure varies is maybe my favorite, and the mineral deposits in the wood I got for my home build doesn't bother me either, to the extent I finished the mandolin in clear lacquer.

We all have our likes and dislikes. If I were buying something like a 44 D 18, I might overlook it.

 

[lonesome picker]

The "Runout" situation is nothing new. Here is my 1971 F-412. It has been suggested that before the top aged and darkened, it wouldn't have been as obvious.

It has absolutely no impact on the sound. I adds to the serious mojo that a 50+ year old instrument already has.

 

[West R Lee]

But what is it that makes the color change either side of the center seam? I ask because I've seen many tops where the grain is straight and parallel to the center seam, yet when you look from the front, or when you move the guitar side to side, you see a slight color variation from one side to the other. I see that in the guitar on the right in the picture Sandy posted. So sometimes though the grain seems fine and parallel, and straight, the eye sees a color variation. All very interesting.

 

[twocorgis]

But what is it that makes the color change either side of the center seam? I ask because I've seen many tops where the grain is straight and parallel to the center seam, yet when you look from the front, or when you move the guitar side to side, you see a slight color variation from one side to the other. I see that in the guitar on the right in the picture Sandy posted. So sometimes though the grain seems fine and parallel, and straight, the eye sees a color variation. All very interesting.

I think it's really a bit of an optical illusion Jim. The runout on my Orpheum OM is particularly egregious, to the point that the wood doesn't even look bookmatched. On a $1000 Eastman, it would be no big deal. On a high dollar Orpheum? Not so much so. That's why I sent this one back when I first bought it, I thought I'd be able to get another, but was never able to, and it ended up with Rocky at Street Sounds, where it was bought by @jeffcoop. He was very gracious to sell it back to me.

 

[davismanLV]

Here's a diagram of the different ways to saw wood. You'll notice that with the quarter sawn wood, the growth rings run through the wood but not always exactly straight, but at a slight angle. The more angle, the more runout. When you take a piece that has a higher angle rate and saw them and bookmatch the parts, those angled rings will reflect the light differently on each side. Does that help??




The largest billet dead center of the quarter has the least angle of growth rings. So that wood will not show runout. The further out billets will show the most runout, due to the angle of the growth rings.

 

[AcornHouse]

Here's a diagram of the different ways to saw wood. You'll notice that with the quarter sawn wood, the growth rings run through the wood but not always exactly straight, but at a slight angle. The more angle, the more runout. When you take a piece that has a higher angle rate and saw them and bookmatch the parts, those angled rings will reflect the light differently on each side. Does that help??




The largest billet dead center of the quarter has the least angle of growth rings. So that wood will not show runout. The further out billets will show the most runout, due to the angle of the growth rings.

Not exactly correct. Read Bob Taylor’s blog I quoted above. Even perfectly quartersawn wood can have runout due to twist in the tree. So the grain’s lengthwise direction is slightly off parallel to the top.

 

[davismanLV]

Not exactly incorrect, either. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Here's another example to show the angle of the rings in different cuts.

 

[West R Lee]

Yep, I've FINALLY got it. It's how the grain moves through the top from under the top to the top of the top. Thanks folks. I was just very curious. Great pictorial there Tom. I appreciate it.

West

 

[tommym]

Not exactly correct. Read Bob Taylor’s blog I quoted above. Even perfectly quartersawn wood can have runout due to twist in the tree. So the grain’s lengthwise direction is slightly off parallel to the top.

Yes, I concur. You can add the "taper" along the length of the tree/ log to that list too. Even if there is no twist in the tree, the taper can sometimes come into play.

Tommy

 

[Br1ck]

It's the Gremlins. For eons they have held instrument builders hostage. Tribute is paid so the Gremlins don't infuse their wood stash with light benders. Late payments get a dusting of light benders. The longer it takes to get paid, the more light bender dust is let loose. Just one more cost of doing business. Some builders choose to allot 10% of their production to dark finishes, and are late payers several days each month. Small savings, but one has to save where one can.

 

[Rocky]

Prompted by this thread, I decided to look at my spruce top guitars.

Nightbird has no runout. Which is not surprising: https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/spruced-up.204926/
Bourgeois has none. Not surprising.
Breedlove has a bit, just enough to capture a 3D look.

Yamaha FG700S - beach guitar, must have cost all of $150 when I bought it. None also. Must have gotten lucky.

 

[West R Lee]

Here's one thing I don't understand about runout. If you're building a guitar and a quality builder at that, it would seem that during top selection, a trained eye could look at both the top and the bottom of a top, and determine immediately if once split, that top would have runout, or not. Yet all the time you see very high quality guitars with runout.

I'm assuming that's precisely what Bruce Van Wart of Collings is looking for as he selects tops, which he, and he alone has done for 30 years for Collings. Yet occasionally I've seen Collings guitars with runout.

Watch at about 1 minute into the video, though the entire video is fascinating.



West

 

[AcornHouse]

You won’t see runout from the top when the wood is in the white (I.e. unfinished). You don’t really see the silking until it’s sanded to a fine grit and finish is applied (at least 1 coat).

 

[walrus]

"The spruce top needs to be easily excited by the vibrations of the strings" is a great quote!

walrus

 

[Rocky]

"The spruce top needs to be easily excited by the vibrations of the strings" is a great quote!

walrus

And if you want to sell the guitar, the player also needs to be easily excited.

 

[Boneman]

Yea, guess my D46 has a bit of runout as well. Perhaps Guild did not have someone as dedicated as Collings does hand picking through the spruce.