Robert Godin explains the "opening up" of an acoustic
- Thread starter Ridgemont
- Start date
Interesting but, respectfully, almost incoherent: " ... you know, it works this way (waving hand) and then the other way ...".
I think tops / guitars do open up but we've had people here do a better job of explaining the hows and whys.
Also not sure I bought the remark about it opening up "... in the key of G ...but not others because it's not played much in another key ..." Eh? :?
I think tops / guitars do open up but we've had people here do a better job of explaining the hows and whys.
Also not sure I bought the remark about it opening up "... in the key of G ...but not others because it's not played much in another key ..." Eh? :?
taabru45
Enlightened Member
Eh....one of my favorite keys......
Band leader: "Okay everybody we're going to play _________ in the key of Eh"
Guitarist: "Wait, my guitar's only broken in in the key of G"
Band leader: "Wow, that bites ... gotta spare with you?"
Guitarist: "Yeah, but it's only broken in in the key of B"
Band leader: "Well ... we're hosed ... see you next week"
Guitarist: "Wait, my guitar's only broken in in the key of G"
Band leader: "Wow, that bites ... gotta spare with you?"
Guitarist: "Yeah, but it's only broken in in the key of B"
Band leader: "Well ... we're hosed ... see you next week"
No wonder my guitar sounds better when I'm playing John Prine songs! I've told people "There's grooves in the fingerboard where the John Prine songs are." 
valleyguy
Member
dreadnut said:No wonder my guitar sounds better when I'm playing John Prine songs! I've told people "There's grooves in the fingerboard where the John Prine songs are."
:lol:
Yep, he has an incredible knack of being able to write countless songs using the same chords (usually three) and make them all sound different, unique and appealing (at least to me).West R Lee
Venerated Member
I won't comment pro or con, I do however have a question. If you buy this hook, line and sinker, would this mean that a new old stock guitar........one that's 15 years old and never been out of the case, is stuck and will never "open up"? Or could you exersize the sponges between the hard part and dial her on in after having never been played? :?
Just curious.
West
Just curious.
West
cjd-player
Senior Member
I'm not convinced. People have been trying to get understanding and give explanations for this for many, many years. Is it play time or age, or both?
And I'm sure that not all guitars will behave the same way even if it is true. Wood is not a constant, uniform material. Even pieces cut from the same log will perform differently as guitar tops.
The bottom line is that you should never buy a guitar thinking that it will sound great after it "opens up". It might never change much. If you don't like it right now, don't buy it. If it does change for the better, that's just icing on the cake.
If "opening up " is real, then there is no reason to expect that some guitars will change to a voice that you don't like. Yet, you never hear people talking about that.
And I'm sure that not all guitars will behave the same way even if it is true. Wood is not a constant, uniform material. Even pieces cut from the same log will perform differently as guitar tops.
The bottom line is that you should never buy a guitar thinking that it will sound great after it "opens up". It might never change much. If you don't like it right now, don't buy it. If it does change for the better, that's just icing on the cake.
If "opening up " is real, then there is no reason to expect that some guitars will change to a voice that you don't like. Yet, you never hear people talking about that.
davismanLV
Venerated Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2011
- Messages
- 19,408
- Reaction score
- 12,293
- Location
- U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
- Guild Total
- 2
Yeah, you're right.... you never hear that! I'm not sure about the whole thing, and the wood vibrating different ways after a while.....cjd-player said:
My poor guitar is broke in in B flat..... where does that leave me? :roll:
cjd-player
Senior Member
Jazz player. :mrgreen:davismanLV said:
Al Carruth, the most meticulous of luthiers, did have a written explanation of both the "opening up" and the "aging" process of acoustic guitars. He went through a number of scientific tests and explained the phenomenon in great detail that really makes sense. I can't seem to find the article though. Although I have nothing but the greatest respect for Robert Godin as an innovator and a CEO, as well as his company's ability to deliver very good guitars at the price points he plays in, it must be remembered that Robert Godin started off as a salesman, and is now the owner of a large company. He is not, nor has he ever been, to my knowledge, a luthier or hand builder. There is nothing that he has said that is wrong, he just leaves out a lot of details.
If you find an older guitar that hasn't been played (and assuming that it hasn't suffered any structural damage). the guitar's opening up would proceed as if it was a new guitar built with a 15 year old top. The "opening up" process would start from that point, as would the longer term "aging" process. A 15 year old guitar that hasn't been played will essntially not have the tonal improvements due to aging, and you will probably notice the same tonal improvement in the first 3 minutes that you would with any other "new" guitar.
Kostas
If you find an older guitar that hasn't been played (and assuming that it hasn't suffered any structural damage). the guitar's opening up would proceed as if it was a new guitar built with a 15 year old top. The "opening up" process would start from that point, as would the longer term "aging" process. A 15 year old guitar that hasn't been played will essntially not have the tonal improvements due to aging, and you will probably notice the same tonal improvement in the first 3 minutes that you would with any other "new" guitar.
Kostas
cjd-player
Senior Member
I have great respect for Al Carruth, and yes he has done lots of rigorous studies on tone. But most of his studies are comparison studies. Well thought out and executed, but not rigorous scientific studies on a first principles level. What is and has always been lacking in the arguments about opening up is a scientific understanding of what really happens in the wood on a cellular and molecular level, and then correlation of those effects on tonal properties.
A parallel point:
As a metallurgical engineer, I am often amused by what people believe about metals. There are even many in the industry who proclaim all sorts of ideas as fact, but these folks have no fundamental understanding of the atomic structure of metals, and how to manipulate those structures to advantage. Their proclamations are rubbish and folly. (Such as the so-called stretching of guitar strings when you install new ones. But that is a whole separate topic.)
As far as I know, no one can point to rigorous scientific studies of the cells and molecules of wood to document what happens in a so-called opening up process. There are lots of folks proclaiming hypotheses such as crystalization of resins, fatigue of cell walls, etc... but I don't believe that anyone has ever actually published results of scientific studies documenting those hypothesized ideas as actual fact and their effect on tone. Most of the so-called results are simply anecdotal, not scientific.
I'm not saying that opening up does not happen, but that there is not as yet any hard scientific evidence of what actually happens (or may not happen).
Beyond that, without rigorously controlled recordings of before and after, our human psychoacoustics are extremely unreliable in comparing sounds, especially with time intervals of years between sound samples.
A parallel point:
As a metallurgical engineer, I am often amused by what people believe about metals. There are even many in the industry who proclaim all sorts of ideas as fact, but these folks have no fundamental understanding of the atomic structure of metals, and how to manipulate those structures to advantage. Their proclamations are rubbish and folly. (Such as the so-called stretching of guitar strings when you install new ones. But that is a whole separate topic.)
As far as I know, no one can point to rigorous scientific studies of the cells and molecules of wood to document what happens in a so-called opening up process. There are lots of folks proclaiming hypotheses such as crystalization of resins, fatigue of cell walls, etc... but I don't believe that anyone has ever actually published results of scientific studies documenting those hypothesized ideas as actual fact and their effect on tone. Most of the so-called results are simply anecdotal, not scientific.
I'm not saying that opening up does not happen, but that there is not as yet any hard scientific evidence of what actually happens (or may not happen).
Beyond that, without rigorously controlled recordings of before and after, our human psychoacoustics are extremely unreliable in comparing sounds, especially with time intervals of years between sound samples.
valleyguy
Member
So what happens if I buy a new guitar because I like its sound, but then after it "opens up" I no longer like its sound. What's to say that "opening up" produces a positive impact on the sound.
davismanLV
Venerated Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2011
- Messages
- 19,408
- Reaction score
- 12,293
- Location
- U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
- Guild Total
- 2
I think that's what Carl was saying. It's always seen as a "positive" and that's not necessarily true...... if I read it right.
cjd-player
Senior Member
ebay :mrgreen:valleyguy said:
Allowing for:
- The fallibility of human psycho-acoustics: "Man, this is the best-sounding guitar I've ever heard"
- The capacity for self-congratulations and the need for reinforcement: "Gee, I'm so glad I bought (could afford) this guitar ... it just gets better everyday"
- And self-fulfilling prophecy: "This one sounds better than my old one because it's newer and cost more"
It makes intuitive sense that a new guitar, subject to reasonable use, would gain some volume and clarity as its top becomes more flexible. How much? Who knows. Could it be crummy-sounding? Sure, why not.
Steel-bladed tools like putty knives, drywall taping/finishing knives, hand- and back-saws, and 12" concrete finishing trowels become more flexible the more they're used; more responsive ... more sensitive to changes in pressure despite the fact that they're made of steel.
This discussion is reminiscent of the NCL v. UV-cured thread but I can't think of anybody who'd invest, say, $500 thousand in UL or other ASTM-certified testing facilities to find out the answer. It's also possible that the answer could be "sort of" or "more testing is needed" or "true in some, but not all guitars".
I personally think most exaggerated claims of guitars 'opening up' can be dismissed for the reasons above. Finally, a thing that can't be proved true isn't necessarily false since, by definition, it can't be proved false either.
- The fallibility of human psycho-acoustics: "Man, this is the best-sounding guitar I've ever heard"
- The capacity for self-congratulations and the need for reinforcement: "Gee, I'm so glad I bought (could afford) this guitar ... it just gets better everyday"
- And self-fulfilling prophecy: "This one sounds better than my old one because it's newer and cost more"
It makes intuitive sense that a new guitar, subject to reasonable use, would gain some volume and clarity as its top becomes more flexible. How much? Who knows. Could it be crummy-sounding? Sure, why not.
Steel-bladed tools like putty knives, drywall taping/finishing knives, hand- and back-saws, and 12" concrete finishing trowels become more flexible the more they're used; more responsive ... more sensitive to changes in pressure despite the fact that they're made of steel.
This discussion is reminiscent of the NCL v. UV-cured thread but I can't think of anybody who'd invest, say, $500 thousand in UL or other ASTM-certified testing facilities to find out the answer. It's also possible that the answer could be "sort of" or "more testing is needed" or "true in some, but not all guitars".
I personally think most exaggerated claims of guitars 'opening up' can be dismissed for the reasons above. Finally, a thing that can't be proved true isn't necessarily false since, by definition, it can't be proved false either.