Right hand technique and speed: How fast can you pick?

[killdeer43]

how can you not lust

I try to be very selective with my....lust! :lol:

Cheers,
Joe

 

[devellis]

I've adapted to my lack of speed. I use lots of left-hand ornaments to keep things interesting at a more stately pace. This works well for me. I hear more complaints about people playing to fast than about them playing too slowly.

It's a personal choice, to be sure. But being forced by my own limitations to forgo lightning speed, I've enriched my playing. To keep it interesting, I've found other ways to add nuance to my playing and now really enjoy that stuff.

Now, if I were playing with others who wanted to keep at a breakneck pace, I'd be in trouble. Indeed, I've run into just that problem with fiddlers who insist on playing Irish reels at dizzying paces. So, I just don't play in those contexts. To me, music shared with others should be like a conversation. Everyone should make a modest adaptation to others in order to benefit from what each player has to contribute. Too often, speed turns that conversation into an exercise in one-upsmanship. This isn't always true, of course. There are groups where everyone plays equally quickly and there's no one-upsmanship at all. There are also fast players who'll slow down, loud players who'll play more softly, and other forms of musical compromise that happen in groups of players.

If you want speed and you can get there, there's no reason not to go for it. But if you can't get beyond a certain pace, pushing at the expense of tone, timing, and musicality (as some do) is not a good trade-off in my judgment. Guys like Doc, Tony Rice, Norman Blake, and others are who they are because they can do it all -- play at breathtaking speeds and remain supremely musical. For me (and some others, I'm confident), it's a trade-off. I'd rather forgo the speed than compromise musicality any more than my other limitations require.

 

[204084]

Interesting contrast of right hand technique with two "gypsy jazz" players. Check out Oberg's right wrist when he's playing rhythm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6ixj3Hc64Q

 

[yettoblaster]

I've been playing fifty years, and speed work is a gradual acquisition: after accuracy: always. To play fast I must be relaxed, and that requires a lot of playing slowly and accurately until even little inconveniences don't throw me off.

yettoblaster: Do you anchor your right hand?

Not for fast jazz passages. I generally move from a medium position where I may be brushing the strings a bit with my knuckles to more forward towards the neck a pinch. On an archtop guitar my free fingers may extend and brush the pickguard a bit, but I'm not anchored unless playing Rock stuff and that's more palm muting than anything.
My right (picking) hand is pretty relaxed. It helps to moisten the pick to keep it a bit more secure. I also puit bite marks on my picks so I can at least feel when it's moving around on me. I grasp the pick with just enough pressure between my 1st finger and thumb so that the flesh sort of rubberizes the pick mounting in a consistent way (heavy picks required), and just enough pressure so that while it may shift a little bit, it doesn't get too out of alignment (I use the pointy end).

I'm not a speed demon. But there's enough reserve so that I can execute fast passages and even longer passages to make the musical statements I want said with some authority, if not blazing. I think a little goes a long ways, kinda like poker. :wink: If the song demands it I'm OK with it. I don't play a lot of be-bop stylings, but can negotiate the heads with some practice.

 

[TonyT]

I also find myself playing with the wrong corner of the pick when I get going too fast

 

[killdeer43]

I've adapted to my lack of speed. I use lots of left-hand ornaments to keep things interesting at a more stately pace. This works well for me. I hear more complaints about people playing to fast than about them playing too slowly.

It's a personal choice, to be sure. But being forced by my own limitations to forgo lightning speed, I've enriched my playing. To keep it interesting, I've found other ways to add nuance to my playing and now really enjoy that stuff.

Now, if I were playing with others who wanted to keep at a breakneck pace, I'd be in trouble. Indeed, I've run into just that problem with fiddlers who insist on playing Irish reels at dizzying paces. So, I just don't play in those contexts. To me, music shared with others should be like a conversation. Everyone should make a modest adaptation to others in order to benefit from what each player has to contribute. Too often, speed turns that conversation into an exercise in one-upsmanship. This isn't always true, of course. There are groups where everyone plays equally quickly and there's no one-upsmanship at all. There are also fast players who'll slow down, loud players who'll play more softly, and other forms of musical compromise that happen in groups of players.

If you want speed and you can get there, there's no reason not to go for it. But if you can't get beyond a certain pace, pushing at the expense of tone, timing, and musicality (as some do) is not a good trade-off in my judgment. Guys like Doc, Tony Rice, Norman Blake, and others are who they are because they can do it all -- play at breathtaking speeds and remain supremely musical. For me (and some others, I'm confident), it's a trade-off. I'd rather forgo the speed than compromise musicality any more than my other limitations require.

Wow! That is so right on the target, Bob.
I don't need to add a thing so I'll just carry your thoughts along as a quote.

Excellent treatise,
Joe

 

[adorshki]

I've adapted to my lack of speed. I use lots of left-hand ornaments to keep things interesting at a more stately pace. This works well for me. I hear more complaints about people playing to fast than about them playing too slowly.

Wow! That is so right on the target, Bob.
Excellent treatise,
Joe

My words might have been a little different but you both still took 'em right out of my mouth! :lol:

 

[kitniyatran]

Your right arm hurts because you are working too hard. Tensing the arm & shoulder muscles is a sure-fire recipe for serious shoulder problems down the road. You get faster (and w better control) as your fulcrum gets closer to the pick/string contact. In other words, moving the pick from the wrist is faster than the elbow. Try not to use your shoulder. Jim Nunally (bluegrass speedster) hardly moves his wrist, making most of the movement for single-string work in his fingers! His hands hardly appear to move!

See what info you can search out on 'sweep picking' too.

Another place to get good info on picking speed is the Gypsy Jazz forums,
http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=09fd5ee1d11e25a1babf7e8c213442ea

...because those guys are crazy fast!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdL_LHKVIMo

What he's doing with his right hand is just like the mandolin tremolo you were working on. Get comfortable doing that on a single string and your left hand will have to work to catch up!

BTW, the Gypsies, Bluegrassers and Jazz guys all seem to agree on very stiff picks.

If you watch the Clarence White vids Steffan posted in another thread, you can see this minimal right hand movement in his playing, too. A legend of guitar playing at any speed. You may also notice some assistance from the other fingers that aren't tied up holding the pick.
"Crosspicking" can give the illusion of speed without having it.
I also agree on stiff picks, but much beyond 2mm just seems like a fistful to me.

 

[taabru45]

Mando...this guy is a complete education, and I'm just now appreciating him... Check out the minimal movement in this vid, and the singer never stops watching him :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alX4xbiq ... re=related

here are a couple of more, watch closley now, do what he does, and after that....call us.... :lol: Steffan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RkxpFvo ... re=related

There is a nice shot of his guitar work near the end......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMQuuZNv ... re=related

 

[kitniyatran]

the singer never stops watching him

That's Bob Baxter, one of the big time guitar instructors of the '70's. Had a column in Guitar Player, I believe. This entire TV episode/lesson is available to purchase. You may want to look into it. Clarence's brother, Bluegrass mandolin great Roland has an instruction book & other goodies, too.

 

[taabru45]

the singer never stops watching him

That's Bob Baxter, one of the big time guitar instructors of the '70's. Had a column in Guitar Player, I believe. This entire TV episode/lesson is available to purchase. You may want to look into it. Clarence's brother, Bluegrass mandolin great Roland has an instruction book & other goodies, too.

He KNOWS......he's 'at the feet' of the master.... :wink: but what a sad loss....29 years old. Steffan

more on the man and his 'secret' here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20533

 

[kitniyatran]

Yeah, he caught my attention in the Byrds, so I was surprised & sad when he died.
Didn't realize 'til several years later when I started studying bluegrass & flatpicking his impact on flatpicked acoustic guitar, which may have been even greater .

 

[204084]

Imagine flipping water off the end of your pinkie finger. Hold your pick as loosely as you can. I was taught that if you don't drop your pick sometimes, you're holding on to tight, and tight = slow.

I've tried that....don't work for me......I don't think Mclaughlin ever thought or worried about about dropping his pick in this perfomance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om6HDUKB ... re=related

 

[taabru45]

Tried drilling a 3/8" hole in your pick yet? everyone who's used my pick, loves it....Steffan

 

[204084]

gonna do that steffan soon...

 

[Guild Dawg]

Norman Blake's ideas and techniques have been influential on me, though I am no virtuoso. He just seems to have good, solid, common-sense techniques. You can find a lot of stuff he's done on the web like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYau7QfiiuM

Blake said thick picks sound good in your living room but thin picks sound better when you're playing on stage. This is from Flatpicking Guitar magazine (July/Aug '97):
http://www.flatpick.com/Pages/Featured_ ... orman.html

Personally, I find the harder you concentrate on not letting go of the pick, the more likely you are to drop it. It's like squeezing a watermelon seed. Don't hold it tight and don't hold it loose -- just hold it.

For the record, my favorite pick is the Jim Dunlop .73 mm Nylon. It's got ridges on the big end.

Steffan -- I'm gonna give that hole-drilling trick a try, though.

 

[taabru45]

Its such a natural thing, your finger and thumb are actually touching so the pick tends to just stay, not turn, not drop....do try it.and try using the soft and the pointed edge.. ...and report back.... :wink: Steffan

 

[adorshki]

For the record, my favorite pick is the Jim Dunlop .73 mm Nylon. It's got ridges on the big end.

Second that but I like the 60mm. Just bought a batch last month though and they either changed the plastic or they're a shade under caliper, they're just a tiny bit floppier that the older ones I have. I hate when they do that. :x

 

[avagadro]

I delved into tremolo picking and found that changing the angle of the pick to the strings can be helpful.

 

[Jeff]

Tried drilling a 3/8" hole in your pick yet? everyone who's used my pick, loves it....Steffan

Star picks come ready made with a serrated hole. They've become my go to favorites in 1.14 mm.

Apparently my pick grip isn't too tight as I routinely drop picks into the G37's soundhole. It's OK though, I bought two dozen Star picks & once a month dump the accumulation from the G37.

http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/EMSP-73.htm