Replacing the Harness on my 1957 Aristocrat

[JHJ]

OK, the harness is back in and everything is working. The output of the neck PUP is noticeably less than the bridge. Put the switch in the center position and she sings beautifully. I suppose I could live with it as is, but after a short while I'll likely send off the neck PUP for rewind.



The harness replacement went smoothly. Once I figured out the sequence, it was quite easy. The aquarium tubing really made all the difference. Also, in case anyone is curious, the previous owner had the bridge glued into place. It works and set up fine, so I'll just leave it as well.

 

[SFIV1967]

Great picture! Yes, those things are fun to work on once you figured it out. Hope you also put the groundwire back in, so it connects to the tailpiece.
Ralf

 

[JHJ]

Great picture! Yes, those things are fun to work on once you figured it out. Hope you also put the groundwire back in, so it connects to the tailpiece.
Ralf

Yes, Ralf. I did install the tailpiece ground. I ran it down into the strap hole that receives the large wood screw that goes through the center of the tailpiece that also holds the strap hanger. It gave a better thread bite as well as providing a very solid connection. I did notice a large reduction in hum as well. Not saying this did anything, but with the switch in the center position, it is very quiet by comparison to before the project.

 

[toejom]

Congratulations on your new harness. I am trying to get this 1970 Bluesbird sounding good. It's got a really loud hum. I took the harness out to clean the electronics and after reading this thread I am realizing I did not see a ground connecting to the tail piece. I assumed it was connected to the output jack. I'm also having a problem with the pups. low out put, low magnetic pull, muddy tone.

Do you have any recommendations about replacing the harness, adding a ground wire, new/rewound pups? I really want this guitar to play as beautiful as it looks.

P.S. Here is a link to an album of the cleaning project. Do you think that wiring harness is original? Also could you explain the aquarium tubing? If there is an easier way to work on this, I sure would like to know. I tied dental floss around the shafts of the pots to guide them back in place.

 

[SFIV1967]

I am trying to get this 1970 Bluesbird sounding good. It's got a really loud hum. I took the harness out to clean the electronics and after reading this thread I am realizing I did not see a ground connecting to the tail piece. I assumed it was connected to the output jack. I'm also having a problem with the pups. low out put, low magnetic pull, muddy tone.
Do you have any recommendations about replacing the harness, adding a ground wire, new/rewound pups? I really want this guitar to play as beautiful as it looks.
P.S. Here is a link to an album of the cleaning project. Do you think that wiring harness is original? Also could you explain the aquarium tubing? If there is an easier way to work on this, I sure would like to know. I tied dental floss around the shafts of the pots to guide them back in place.

The parts look original as does the wire, however some of the soldering seem to be re-done over time. (like in picture 3/16).
Have you taken a drawing of all the electrical connections when you had it out, means what is connected to what?
Also the ground wire to the tail piece is clearly missing.

Some comments about your pictures:
2/16: I see some bit of seafoam green on the capacitor wire there, I assume, as you don't show the neck P/U tone pot capacitor in any other picture, that the green is from the bigger capacitor with a value like 0.047mfd at the neck p/u tone pot and the smaller value, 0.01mfd (the mustard cap, see picture 9) is at the bridge p/u. This should give you a "darker" "jazzy" sound for the neck pickup and a clearer sound for the bridge pickup.
Does it look like this?: http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/tjfixit/M75/IMG_1564.jpg (picture from our member fixit)
I don't know who manufactured that seafoam green axial type (but flatter) capacitor, it's quite a different form factor from the round mustard caps.

3/16: 137 = manufacturer CTS (Chicago Telephone Supply), afterwards the 4 numbers are unreadable in the picture, the first two numbers are the year and the second two numbers the week.
(the 004019 is just the part number, it's a 500kohms pot)
As you see some of the soldering was changed over time.

4/16: 304= manufacturer Stackpole, 6841 = 1968, 41th week, 004020 = part number, it is also a 500k ohms pot.
5/16: 304= manufacturer Stackpole, 6841 = 1968, 41th week, 004020 = part number, it is also a 500k ohms pot.

6/16: neck humbucker

8/16: bridge humbucker (the indication for the bridge P/U is the hole in the middle) - looking at the solder at the housing I would say somebody had this one open and did something inside
Note: Ground wire to tailpiece missing. (see end of this post)

9/16: bridge P/U (?) tone pot capacitor: 0.01mF (10nF = 10000pF) 200V 'mustard cap' made by Philips in Holland (Mullard was also a Philips brand), looks period correct but the solder looks new.

10/16: No codes visible here to me.

12/16: original Switchcraft switch, all connections correct and original.

13/16: No visible ground wire, I don't know how the original ground wire was installed in your model, but my 67 Starfire had a solid ground wire running from the ground lug of the output socket to the tailpiece internally.
(EDIT: See end of this post which solves the riddle!)
In the below picture you see the ground wire coming out to press against the later mounted tailpiece (it could be a bit longer however to give solid contact):

14/16: Dental floss is one method, using the aquarium tube is sometimes better as it fit's directly over the pot shafts and makes it easier to get the pots in.
The standard size "Airline Tubing" for aquariums is perfect (like the "Top Fin" brand), any shop how sells aquarium accessories has it.
You still might need a bit of dental floss however.
See this picture from our member jahn, the difficulty in a Starfire is the center block, you can't go through the pickup holes, all goes through the narrow f-holes!

16/16: Original tailpiece, made by a company called "Johann Müller & Sohn" in Erlangen/Germany. That company does still exist under a different name today, it's now called ABM-Müller and the factory is located in Berlin/Germany. They do produce the harp tailpieces for the American Patriarch models again for Guild!

Sorry, I couldn't answer all your questions but thought it's a start at least.

Also I found another thread where you see a similar harness, so you can compare!
Also it solves the riddle of the ground wire to the tailpiece! You see it coming from the ground connection of the bridge pickup and it goes to the tailpiece! So that is how it was in the Bluesbird, that's why no ground wire was visible on the output socket. http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?174130-NGD-1969-M75-Bluesbird

Ralf

 

[jcwu]

Also it solves the riddle of the ground wire to the tailpiece! You see it coming from the ground connection of the bridge pickup and it goes to the tailpiece! So that is how it was in the Bluesbird, that's why no ground wire was visible on the output socket. http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?174130-NGD-1969-M75-Bluesbird[/COLOR]

Ralf[/FONT][/COLOR]

The harness on my '77 CE100D was also done this way - ground wire coming from the bridge pickup to the tailpiece.

 

[SFIV1967]

The harness on my '77 CE100D was also done this way - ground wire coming from the bridge pickup to the tailpiece.

Thanks for confirming. I am thinking that the Starfire IV was different due to the solid center piece and the difficulty to run a ground wire directly from the bridge pickup to the tailpiece. Maybe that's why they used the ground wire from the output socket to the tailpiece on the Starfire IV.
Fixit's SF IV also had the green ground wire starting from the output socket: http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/tjfixit/IMG_0395.jpg

Ralf

 

[Default]

You can check the resistances on the pups by plugging a guitar cable in and checking the resistance between the tip and the sleeve. The numbers tend (in our limited sample) to be between 6.8K and 7.29K.

 

[toejom]

Wow, you guys really know your stuff! I'm completely new to electronics in guitars do please forgive me. I took a few more pictures and added to the album as well as a video demonstrating the lack of magnetism with the bridge pick up.

I know adding the ground to the trail piece will kill the hum (thanks for that!) but I want to make sure there is nothing else I should do before putting it all back in the. I have been measuring the resistance with a cheap analog multi meter but wonder if I'm getting accurate readings since they are still wired up and not isolated from the rest of the harness. I touched at the connecting point of the pick ups as shown in one of the pictures and I'm getting about 6k on the bridge and about 5k on the neck. I'm getting really inconsistent and confusing readings on the pots. When turned all the way one way I get about 3k and all the way the other I get 0 and some where in between I get infinity. When I was playing the guitar before I think I remember them being weird but I was to distracted by the hum.

Questions:
Should I isolate the components to get a more accurate reading?
Do you think the pickups magnetism problems is an issue?
Do the pickups look like they have been potted?
Any other wise observations from the new pictures?

 

[Default]

First thing is spray out the pots. Second thing is try a new battery in the meter. Mine gets wonky when the battery is low. I would get a digital meter -they are cheap and easier to read. The wiring diagram, (courtesy of Ralph) is below.

Make sure the pickup switch is not set to the center position, otherwise you will be measuring the resistance of both pickups to ground. That will give you some inaccurate readings.

I forgot to say, that's a really cool guitar, toejom! I like it a lot!

 

[Default]

Looked at your video. It looks to me like the bridge pup is pretty dead magnetically. :-(

 

[SFIV1967]

I took a few more pictures and added to the album as well as a video demonstrating the lack of magnetism with the bridge pick up.
I have been measuring the resistance with a cheap analog multi meter but wonder if I'm getting accurate readings since they are still wired up and not isolated from the rest of the harness. I touched at the connecting point of the pick ups as shown in one of the pictures and I'm getting about 6k on the bridge and about 5k on the neck. I'm getting really inconsistent and confusing readings on the pots. When turned all the way one way I get about 3k and all the way the other I get 0 and some where in between I get infinity. When I was playing the guitar before I think I remember them being weird but I was to distracted by the hum.
Questions:
Should I isolate the components to get a more accurate reading?
Do you think the pickups magnetism problems is an issue?
Do the pickups look like they have been potted?
Any other wise observations from the new pictures?

So my "guess" about the seafoam green capacitor was right. Is it a 0.047mfd as well? Was it between the neck p/u volume and tone pots?

If you compare your connections on the volume and tone pots to the pictures from fixit in that link, it should look the same, or? If yes, this should be o.k. at least.

The video shows it pretty good that the bridge pickup (the one with the hole) has an issue regarding no magnetism. I don't know what the reason could be and leave this to others who have a million times more experience with pickups to answer. I just checked two mini humbuckers that I have on my desk and both have about the same magnetism like your neck p/u.
My bridge p/u (the one with the hole) measures 6.95kohms and the neck p/u has 6.7kohms. But this is with the p/us desoldered from the circuit.
Not sure if you paid attention to the settings of the volume and tone pots when you measured the DC resistance of the pickups? With a multimeter you can easily measure it while still in the circuit by attaching the multimeter chords to the guitar chord output socket terminals, selecting one pickup with the switch, have all 4 vol & tone controls on max (means the knobs on 10 or all the way to the left = zero ohms) & then measuring. Afterwards selecting the other pickup with the switch. It'll read a few % less than if the p/u was out of the circuit but close enough for a basic indication if both are similar. Maybe you try this as well.

Inside, looking from both sides of the pickups, my p/us look the same like yours. There seems to be some kind of white wax (?) inside of them as standard as it looks.

Measuring the pots with a simple analog ohm meter will be difficult as they are 500kohms pots.
When you connect the left and the middle lug you should be able to move it slowly between zero ohm (pot all the way to the left) and infinity for a little time when you turn the pot towards the right.
The same happens when you connect the middle and the right lug, you will only measure zero ohms when the pot is all the way to the right this time, if you move it to the left very slowly the resistance will increase towards 500kohms (or infinity on your meter).
When you connect the left and right lug you will measure infinity or 500kohms, as your meter probably can't measure 500kohms.
(that video explains it on a 1kohms pot as example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh2cQCLie5A )

Ralf

 

[SFIV1967]

@Steve: Looks like you typed faster than I did!
The Starfire IV wiring diagram shows a 200k ohms neck tone pot (to make it even "jazzier") but the later Bluesbirds already used 4 x 500kohms pots as far as I see it. Otherwise it is exactly the wiring I see in toejom's BB.

Looked at your video. It looks to me like the bridge pup is pretty dead magnetically. :-(

Anybody we can recommend to toejom to get the bridge pickup fixed? Curtis Novak maybe?
Ralf

 

[Default]

@Steve: Looks like you typed faster than I did!
The Starfire IV wiring diagram shows a 200k ohms neck tone pot (to make it even "jazzier") but the later Bluesbirds already used 4 x 500kohms pots as far as I see it. Otherwise it is exactly the wiring I see in toejom's BB.

Anybody we can recommend to toejom to get the bridge pickup fixed? Curtis Novak maybe?

That's actually not so easy as those pots are completely enclosed without even the smallest opening, and on my Starfire I dared to bend them open as I fear to break anything. But I guess there is no other choice if they are corroded inside. I guess FaderLube would be needed after cleaning.
Ralf

See that ittybitty indentation in /\ the pot casing? You use the straw that comes with the DeOxit to squirt cleaner into the pot there. It's messy and wasteful, but you have to do what you have to do. <shrug> Controller lube afterwards. Paper towels after that.

 

[Default]

You can also dribble it down the control shaft, if you have no other alternative...

 

[toejom]

Great suggestions!

Ralf, yes you were right about the green capacitor. It is .047 and is between the neck volume and tone pots.

I have cleaned the pots with contact cleaner as everyone has described. They are no longer scratchy but I have yet to test their resistance. I need to get a better multi-meter.

The hum problem still baffles me. I've checked all the grounding over and over and there should not be a problem but it was still humming terribly. I started to manipulate the wiring and components while it was plugged up and while manipulating the wires near the output jack the hum stopped! I don't want to just put it back in there and have the hum resume so I thought about just replacing the wiring harness. Is that usually frowned upon when it comes to vintage guitars or a pretty normal thing?

P.S. Sorry I hijacked your thread. Should I start a sperate one? I am very appreciative of your help and have learned a lot during this project.

 

[Default]

Sounds like a break in the groundwire to the output jack.
<edit>
Looked at the pics and the ground on the jack looks good.

There was a pickup rewinding thread a while back with suggestions. Lollar only does Fender and Gibson, so, Curtis would be a good choice.
http://curtisnovak.com/pickups_repairs.shtml

 

[toejom]

Congratulations on your new harness. I am trying to get this 1970 Bluesbird sounding good. It's got a really loud hum. I took the harness out to clean the electronics and after reading this thread I am realizing I did not see a ground connecting to the tail piece. I assumed it was connected to the output jack. I'm also having a problem with the pups. low out put, low magnetic pull, muddy tone.

Do you have any recommendations about replacing the harness, adding a ground wire, new/rewound pups? I really want this guitar to play as beautiful as it looks.

P.S. Here is a link to an album of the cleaning project. Do you think that wiring harness is original? Also could you explain the aquarium tubing? If there is an easier way to work on this, I sure would like to know. I tied dental floss around the shafts of the pots to guide them back in place.

I added another video showing how the output jack seems to be the cause of the hum. When I manipulate it in certain ways it will quit humming but it can be manipulated back into the humming. In the video I'm pushing the cable in a little harder. Nothing about the contacts are changing. Maybe the output jack is the problem.

 

[SFIV1967]

See that ittybitty indentation in /\ the pot casing? You use the straw that comes with the DeOxit to squirt cleaner into the pot there. It's messy and wasteful, but you have to do what you have to do. <shrug> Controller lube afterwards. Paper towels after that.

Steve: You are absolutely right, this type of pot is relatively easy to clean (spray out) as also the area where the contacts are is open towards the inside. I was thinking a different (replacement) pot that I had in another guitar which was completely closed. Sorry, my fault.
Ralf

 

[SFIV1967]

In the video I'm pushing the cable in a little harder. Nothing about the contacts are changing. Maybe the output jack is the problem.

You know what, people drove themselves crazy with changing things in the past. Before you even change the output jack I would change the guitar cable and make sure it is not the guitar cable that is broken! If the output jack is really defective I would 1) desolder and resolder and check it again and 2) if 1) does not help I would replace the jack. The good thing is that Switchcraft who made them is still in business and still offers that kind of jack. Any good guitar shop should have them: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Jacks/Switchcraft_Output_Jack.html
I would not change the harness itself if there are no problems.
But check with Curtis Novak regarding the bridge pickup.
Ralf