Question For "Mr. P"(or other sonically literate)

[West R Lee]

P,

I need your technical assistance. If the saddle of an acoustic transfers vibration from the strings directly to the soundboard, what happens if you break the direct contact of the saddle with the top by installing an under saddle pickup? I'll grant you the thickness of the transducer is just a few thousanths, but does that minute thickness and loss of contact between the top and saddle diminish sonic transfer slightly? :?:

West

 

[Mr. P ~]

The UST is a rigid enough material that the vibration transfers through it with almost no alteration to the original tone.
~ When I had a Martin Thinline installed in my HD-28, I could tell absolutely no difference in the acoustic tone.
~ Likewise, when I installed a LR Baggs Element Active in my D-25 the tone drastically improved, but the improvement was because I also installed a TusQ saddle and bridge pins.
~ When I pulled out the worn out "Blues Stick" from my used D-40, and replaced the saddle with a TusQ saddle (and raised the action some) amazing tone came out of that guitar. The "Blues Stick" has a center wire instead of an end wire like all the others. The material that the transducer was made from had crushed down to half its thickness on either end, and the saddle was rocking around the center point. The change in the acoustic tone is amazing.

The Martin and Baggs pickups are a thin rigid material that transfers the vibration as if nothing had been put in there. I could tell no difference in the acoustic tone in either case.

I will soon add a internal microphone in with the Baggs unit on the D-25 so that I can pick up the character of the sound of that guitar. The UST does not sound like the guitar does acoustically.

My plans are to duplicate that system on the D-40 or go with a B-Band UST and Microphone set up.

 

[West R Lee]

Thanks P,

I would have thought that the acoustic engineers for the various guitar manufacturers would have considered this issue.

My DV-72 has a Martin (Fishman) Thinline 332 under saddle, and I was just wanting your opinion. I do agree however that it does not duplicate the sound. Not even close when compared to "miking" it.

Thanks again,
West

 

[Mr. P ~]

DB Smith uses a Shure SM11 (I think) inside his guitars with no UST. He says he gets the true tone of the instrument with no Quak.

 

[Benee Wafers]

Yes Mr. P I can confirm from my notes that DB uses.........the Shure SM11 lavalier microphone ............
Benee Wafers

 

[Mr. P ~]

8) :wink:

 

[West R Lee]

Yes P, now that you mention it, seems like I do remember a thread pertaining to this. It's been a while though and my memory fails me. I remember Dudley stating that he had always felt his acoustics sounded better through a microphone than plugged in.

Regardless, as always I appreciate your input.

Thanks,
West

 

[Jeff]

I remember DB Smiths rerefence to the Sure SM11. I researched it a bit on line since no one local stocks this model. I'm still a bit vague on how big the unit is.

I saw some pictures of Dudley just recently in his natural habitat, Guilds everywhere.

Maybe if we talk nice to him he will post a couple pics of the Microphone in question & the installation.

 

[Mr. P ~]

The SM-11 is a lavaleer mic and is about as big around as my little finger. Also it is a Dynamic and does not require phontom power.

However, it is omni directional, and I think I would rather have a Cardioid patern,

 

[West R Lee]

P,

Would you mind elaborating on that one just a tad for us non-engineering types.....in English if you don't mind? :wink:

:lol: West

 

[Mr. P ~]

P,

Would you mind elaborating on that one just a tad for us non-engineering types.....in English if you don't mind? :wink:

:lol: West

OK...here we go.
- A lavaleer microphones are used to amplify the Speaking Voice, and generally come with a clip that is used to clip the mic to a lapel, a necktie, etc. They generally are .5 inch in diameter or less and they generally come with a pre-amp with phantom power for the mic.
- Microphones come in two very genral types, powered or unpowered. The standard old mics you have seen all your life are mostly dynamic mics (unpowered), which means that the diaphragm in the microphone produces a voltage when it is moved by sound waves. Then the powered mics like electret or studio mics require batteries or an extra wire that delivers power from a phantom power source (many mixing boards supply phantom power to any channel).
- Polar Paterns. Microphones have a pick-up patern. Examples are the best explanation for this.
-- Omnidirectional.. If you put one of these on a mic stand and stand 1 foot in front of the mic, then 1 foot to the rear, 1 foot to the right and then 1 foot to the left and speak at the same volume in each position you will get the same output.
-- Cardioid - In this pattern you would get the same output in front, while you would get about half at the left and right positions, and basically no output from the rear.
-- Super Cardioid - In this pattern you would get the same output in front, while you would get esentially nothing from right, left or rear

Typical uses are the omni diretional is used for studio work or on conference room tables or other benign situations.

Cardioids and super cardioid are used by vocalists on rock stages (all live sound work) so that the mic gets the vocals but does not pick up and re-amplify the output from the bass, drums, guitars, and the crowd. Reducing feedback problems.

Wow this is the long way around.....

I said I thought I would prefer the cardiod pattern in the guitar because you could select the spot that gives the best sound, where the omni would pick up everything in the box, including sound coming in through the sound hole.

I hope DB will weigh in on that point, since he has had a lot of experience with that aspect of things.

Now you see you have to be careful what you ask for, because I am one of those guys that when asked for the time......has to explain how the watch works first!!!
:roll:

 

[West R Lee]

Thank you very much sir.

West

 

[Mr. P ~]

Thank you very much sir.

West

hmmm....short response. Must have a headache now! :wink: