Question about "Red Spruce"...

[Jackson Quinn]

I'm sure questions like this have been brought up before, so I apologize for any overlap/redundancy. ... Get it?

The recent controversy regarding topwoods has sparked a question in my mind: Guild uses a lot of Red Spruce (or Adirondack, whatever you'd like to call it. I know many people suggest that while the names essentially describe the same wood, there are differences, or some believe that it's not correct to call all red spruce "Adirondack"; let's set that aside for now) on their modern instruments, and I imagine that's been a part of their way of building guitars for a while. In more than one Guild video featuring Doyle Dykes, he mentions that Guild has been using Red Spruce since its inception. Now, I know (or at least have heard, several times) that by the mid-50's or so Martin and Gibson had more or less phased Adirondack out and phased Sitka in as the primary topwood on their guitars. But what about Guild? Were they using Adi in the New York/early Hoboken days? What about through the '60's? And when they moved to Westerly in the late '60's/early '70's? Was it still used (or revived, depending on the answers to the other questions) through the later Westerly days?

I'm just curious. I've found I tend to prefer Sitka anyway (call me crazy, I just think it blends better while I'm accompanying myself singing. Adirondack-topped guitars that I've played tend to fight for the spotlight instead of wrapping around my voice) but I love the sound of Adirondack/Red Spruce too. I take it all on a case-by-case basis, I figure it has more to do with the builder/innumerable other factors than the topwood alone. But I feel I've played enough guitars to at least have an opinion about what I think that particular wood sounds like. So, anyone got any info?

 

[chazmo]

I think it depends on the model, Jackson. Guild has gone back and forth in recent years among different variations of D-40, D-50, and some F-models as well with regard to the top material. I.e., it depends on the era.

That said, I don't think Adi was *ever* used for D-55 or F-50-class tops. Hans will probably call me out on that one, but I don't think I've ever seen an F-50, for example, with Adi. As I said, disclaimer... I ain't no expert on the early days.

I think the simple answer to your question is that they were no using either wood, exclusively, during the early days, Jackson. But, to be clear, I don't know if the used Adi at all.

The bracing of some models has changed fairly radically over the years. Not just material, but also the way the bracing is cut, shaved, etc. These days, I think all the US-built Guilds are using Adi braces and they are scalloped by a CNC milling machine. The most amazing machine in the shop is a holdover from the Ovation days and it is a huge, multi-axis neck milling machine. It kinda puts the fear of the guitar gods in you to watch it at work!

 

[adorshki]

I think it depends on the model, Jackson. Guild has gone back and forth in recent years among different variations of D-40, D-50, and some F-models as well with regard to the top material. I.e., it depends on the era.
That said, I don't think Adi was *ever* used for D-55 or F-50-class tops. Hans will probably call me out on that one, but I don't think I've ever seen an F-50, for example, with Adi. As I said, disclaimer... I ain't no expert on the early days.

I ain't no expert either, but I'll repeat that I never even heard of "Red Spuce" (or "Adirondack") until it started being mentioned as the top wood in discussions about what made the "Bluegrass" models started in Tacoma, special.
We know it's always a BIG mistake to assume anything, but ya'd think if the topwood was such a big deal they'd have mentioned using it long before they got to Tacoma, if they were using it.....but maybe not.
I'm kind of surprised to hear the report that Mr. Dykes says they've been using it "since inception", but perhaps there's some semantic confusion occurring in that statement or its interpretation?

 

[chazmo]

Al, I'm not sure what Doyle is referring to, exactly. Maybe he's talking about the F-47 model upon which his Signature model is based, although I'm not aware of when that had an Adi soundboard.

My understanding is that Adirondack spruce has been in use on other guitars for quite a long time, well before the inception of Guild, that is. I think some pre-war Martin soundboards are made of the stuff. But as for Guild adopting it... I have no clue.

 

[mr.d.bluster]

I have an F-20 and an F-30, from 1966 and 1967, and I'm pretty sure they both have red spruce tops. I'm not sure how to tell for sure, but I do know I can strum as hard as I want, and instead of distorting or "breaking up," they just sort of "clang." Very loudly. And my impression is that the wood looks a little more "sinewy" than the Sitka that I've seen, if that makes any sense.

I think it would be very possible, maybe even likely, that Guild had accumulated a stockpile of red spruce when they first started out, and were able to continue using it for a while after Martin ran out.

Since all I can contribute at this point is speculation, I'll shut up now.

 

[Ridgemont]

Martin slowly changed from red spruce to sitka between '44-'46. This was tight grained red spruce from large trees. One major reason they stopped using it was the establishment of a national park in PA due to the over harvesting of the wood.

 

[Ridgemont]

It is well established that many prewar brands such as Gibson, Stella, Oscar Schmidt, and Martin used red spruce during this time. It was essentially non- existent in guitar production when Guild was established.

 

[adorshki]

It is well established that many prewar brands such as Gibson, Stella, Oscar Schmidt, and Martin used red spruce during this time. It was essentially non- existent in guitar production when Guild was established.

I'm gonna go with the guy who sounds like he's done the most homework and say this tends to support the belief that Guild never used "adi" until Tacoma.

Very loudly. And my impression is that the wood looks a little more "sinewy" than the Sitka that I've seen, if that makes any sense.

We've been advised by experts that visual differentiation between two closely related species is an imprecise art at best.
Comes up frequently regarding East Indian vs. Brazilian Rosewood, for example.
You could be right, anything's possible and red spruce is reported to have a tighter grain than sitka in general, but even as a non-gamblilng man I'd bet what you've really got are superior tightly grained sitka tops (tighter grain, like bearclaw, is supposed to indicate denser and therefore "better" top wood.) My D25's top is noticably finer grained than my D40's for example, it's even got a "racing stripe" down the center that's aged to a redder shade than the rest of the top, it's downright amber now. But I'd be pretty surprised if it turned out to be red spruce.

I think it would be very possible, maybe even likely, that Guild had accumulated a stockpile of red spruce when they first started out, and were able to continue using it for a while after Martin ran out.

I think it's highly unlikely for the reasons Ridgemont points out about it becoming extremely scarce by the time Guild got started (1953)

Since all I can contribute at this point is speculation, I'll shut up now.

AS one inveterate speculator to another: Ya never know what kind of surprising info might might pop out from underneath some stone our speculation kicked over. eaceful:

Al, I'm not sure what Doyle is referring to, exactly. Maybe he's talking about the F-47 model upon which his Signature model is based, although I'm not aware of when that had an Adi soundboard.

Since I don't have his comment in front of me, in context, I'm taking a wild guess he meant "since the inception" of New Hartford production. It would be accurate, at least, even if not the "complete history including Tacoma usage". :wink:

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Great question, Jackson. I certainly have no additional knowledge regarding Guild using Red spruce in it's early days, and agree with the presumption that production runs may have made use of limited stockpiles, as harvesting focus had shifted from the East to the West coast, from Red Spruce to Sitka Spruce. And, yes, "Adirondack" is Red Spruce. The tree grows in the higher elevations of the Adirondack mountains, amongst other locales throughout the Northeastern US.

(Eastern) Red Spruce (picea rubens), also called Adirondack or Appalachian Spruce, is found in decreasing supplies from Nova Scotia to North Carolina. It was *the* pre-war (II) soundboard of choice, and for good reason: this wood has the highest strength-to-weight ratio (think: cross-grain stiffness) of any top wood. It has a noticeably wider grain pattern than does Sitka, as the tree from which the wood is cut is much smaller in diameter. Soundboards take up pretty much all the available width. (Please note that the wideness of the pattern has very little affect on the sound of the instrument. However, it had / has significant effect upon the consumable nature of the finished product, with the buying public demanding more consistent grain pattern. I bought into this when I was a boy, preferring the visual appearance of the "newer" guitars with the tight grain patterns to the wider grain patterns of the "old" guitars. Oh, the foolishness of youth...) Today, the wood is relied upon by nearly all guitar makers as the best brace wood available.


(Western) Sitka Spruce (picea sichensis), by far the largest of the the spruces, became the soundboard of choice for C.F. Martin in the 1940's (as Ridgemont mentioned) due, in addition to the over-harvesting of Red Spruce, the public's growing demand for consistent visual appearance. Other manufacturers followed suit, leading to a National switch to Sitka by the time Guild entered the picture. Note that the tight grain pattern of Sitka is due to the fact that the tree is 2.5 times again the diameter of it's red cousin, and the soundboard portion of the flitch can be cut from "this side" of the board with plenty to spare.


Luthier extrordinaire John Greven has extolled the virtues of Lutz spruce (picea X lutzi), a Sitka and White spruce hybrid, saying that today's Red Spruce choices are inferior to those available at the turn of the last century and Lutz comes closest to Red spruce's desirable traits (e.g., strength-to-weight ratio). The understanding is that the stronger top lets the luthier build a flatter surface (requiring less arch to compensate for the determination of the pull of the strings to implode the instrument). This "flat top" will vibrate more resulting in more sound (volume, tone, etc.). Play / listen to a pre-war Martin and then argue the point. Or, for those of you that were with me at Gruhn's earlier this year and heard me play that 50k Martin well, you know.

 

[adorshki]

It has a noticeably wider grain pattern than does Sitka, as the tree from which the wood is cut is much smaller in diameter. Soundboards take up pretty much all the available width. (Please note that the wideness of the pattern has very little affect on the sound of the instrument.

Interesting. While it contradicts the first thing I ever remember reading about Red Spruce, it tends to confirm my belief that our tightly grained pre-Tacoma tops are in fact sitka.
Goin' with the guy who sounds like he's done his homework again, I'm gonna have to remember that, and thanks for the great post!

 

[Ridgemont]

Old growth red spruce is very tight grain and difficult to differentiate from sitka. The wide grain new growth is what we are used to now. The old growth red spruce came from very old large trees within forests. The forests were dense so little sun hit the trees which resulted in even and thin growth rings. The current red spruce is harvested on farms in which the trees are spread out to allow for maximum sun exposure which results in wide growth rings. The new crop is also being harvested at much younger ages hence wide erratic grain patterns on some tops. There is debate as to which is better, but from a growth standpoint, they are different.

 

[adorshki]

Aha! Thanks.

 

[rachelsdad]

Goin' with the guy who sounds like he's done his homework again,

Boy you're a regular Rock of Jello ain't ya

 

[Jackson Quinn]

I'm sorry, I was paraphrasing with regard to Doyle Dykes' videos, not quoting (hence the lack of quotation marks). But I should have specified anyway. I couldn't find the video I was looking for, so I didn't want to misquote him.

But in the video "Doyle Dykes on his Signature Guild," which can be found on YouTube, he says (direct quote): "And I found out, uh, that also Guild has always been sort of a step ahead of things that I thought I knew a lot about. [Speaking as if he were a member of Guild's staff]: 'Oh, we've been doing that since the sixties!' One of those things is an Adirondack top. And Adirondack bracing. Folks at Guild call that 'Red Spruce,' but it's Adirondack."

That's all a direct line of speech, I haven't rearranged it or anything. So it sounds like based on that statement Guild was using Adirondack in the 60's, at least. However, it's worth noting that he doesn't directly say that; he sort of paraphrases something he may have heard a staff member say ("Oh, we've been doing that since the sixties") and then starts talking about Adirondack. I take this to mean that early Guilds had this topwood, but it may not be so.

I agree that it can be a fool's errand to try to determine what sort of spruce you're dealing with by sight alone. And I think it matters very little what kind of spruce was used on ANY Guilds, 60's or otherwise. I became curious because if Guild was using Red Spruce in the 60's, that would have been unusual for the time period. But it would make a certain amount of sense; since Guild rose from the ashes of the Gibson/Epiphone merger/takeover, they probably thought of themselves as the original "boutique" guitar company. All I mean by this is that I imagine they were trying to move away from the mass-produced marketing of the big guys, and move toward a small-shop feel. I think this might include using what (at the time, at least) would have seemed like the superior material. The Golden Era wasn't too far behind, and while Gibson and Martin had cycled in Sitka along with heavier bracing and larger bridge plates, there were still musicians that remembered when lightly braced, ultra-resonant guitars with Adi tops were king. So Guild might have wanted to emulate that.

I dunno, just throwing some ideas around.

 

[adorshki]

Goin' with the guy who sounds like he's done his homework again,

Boy you're a regular Rock of Jello ain't ya

eaceful:
Actually just tryin' to build some concensus where it looked appropriate :wink:

I'm sorry, I was paraphrasing with regard to Doyle Dykes' videos, not quoting (hence the lack of quotation marks). But I should have specified anyway. I couldn't find the video I was looking for, so I didn't want to misquote him.

Fair enough and 100 bonus points for clarification!

But it would make a certain amount of sense; since Guild rose from the ashes of the Gibson/Epiphone merger/takeover, they probably thought of themselves as the original "boutique" guitar company.

In fact, to be historically accurate, Gibson didn't take over Epiphone until 1957 when Guild was already 5 years old. But yes Guild was founded with former Epiphone employees.
The real reason the Epiphone employees were available was because a strike in 1951 had caused Epiphone to relocate to Phildelphia from New York and the guys Alfred Dronge hired didn't want to go with 'em. Al Dronge, Guild's founder, hooked up with a former Epi executive, George Mann in '52, and hired a bunch of ex-Epiphone employees.
BUT none of this invalidates your idea that they may have thought of themselves as a "boutique" shop, since I'm sure the guys Dronge and Mann hired thought of themselves as true craftsmen in the traditional sense and not just "kit builders".
Still, I don't recall that there was access to any stockpiled Epiphone materials such as red spruce, I think Guild had to start from scratch with whatever materials were available on the market.
(If anybody need to correct me please do so, I don't have Hans' history in hand here, it's at home)
And even taking all that into account, there's nothing wrong with tossing the ideas around, for all we know some former employee ( or even Hans) may pop up and surprise us with a confirmation of your hypothesis!
:wink:

 

[Ridgemont]

Wasn't Epiphone a mandolin and arch top builder?

Guild's business model was not to become a boutique like we know it today, but to offer a guitar of similar or close to quality of the basic Martin or Gibson and sell it for a much lower price. During the folk boom, Guild was the guitar you got when you couldn't afford a Martin. Of course Guild evolved into a company with a great reputation as Martin and Gibson took creative liberties with their designs of the '60s and '70's. this allowed Guild to become a premier brand with household recognition. I believe Dykes was either misinformed or misspoke on the matter of Guild using red spruce during this time.

 

[adorshki]

Guild was created from the wreckage that was left behind when Epiphone was moved to the Gibson plant in Michigan. At this point Epiphone was mainly a mandolin and archtop company with little to no acoustics.

Gotta correct ya on that one for accuracy's sake, Guild was already 5 years old before that happened:
Wikipedia:
"Epiphone instruments made between 1957 and 1969 were made in the Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street and on Elenor Street."
Still, you hinted at another relevant detail which is that while Epiphone was largely an archtop company at the time, so was Guild, and Al Dronge marketed mainly to NY based jazz musicians.
Archtops are mostly laminated tops except for the very high end, and the issue of solid acousticguitar topwood was probably a "non-issue" to them during that period.

 

[Ridgemont]

Gotta correct ya on that one for accuracy's sake, Guild was already 5 years old before that happened:
Wikipedia:
"Epiphone instruments made between 1957 and 1969 were made in the Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street and on Elenor Street."
Still, you hinted at another relevant detail which is that while Epiphone was largely an archtop company at the time, so was Guild, and Al Dronge marketed mainly to NY based jazz musicians.
Archtops are mostly laminated tops except for the very high end, and the issue of solid acousticguitar topwood was probably a "non-issue" to them during that period.

Gee Al you beat me to it. If you notice I edited my post when I realized I was wrong...but you already replied. Guess I am not quick enough.

 

[adorshki]

Gee Al you beat me to it. If you notice I edited my post when I realized I was wrong...but you already replied. Guess I am not quick enough.

LOL!!! Olympic posting races! nthego:
I couldn't see it until I'd posted my reply, then when I went back to ediit mine to cut you some slack, you'd posted again!
Ok I'll stop now.
:rugby:

 

[Ridgemont]

It's the race to the top of the post count list.