Question about my D55e

[fronobulax]

FMIC acquired Guild circa 1995. Guilds were made in Westerly RI. Circa 2001 Guild production was moved to Corona. Circa 2004 Guild production was moved to Tacoma. Circa 2008 Guild production was moved to New Hartford. Circa 2014 FMIC closed the New Hartford plant and sold Guild to CMG.

The prototypes we are discussing were only produced at New Hartford. FMIC owned Guild at that time. The prototypes were produced no earlier than 2008 and probably not later than 2009 since there is a 2009 catalog that shows a lot of models available. The prototypes were produced to test and debug the manufacturing process. The New Hartford factory had been producing guitars but these prototypes were made to demonstrate what the factory could do and find out what needed to be changed. The prototypes were based upon a D55 because that model was iconic and likely to be the flagship model. "If we can make a D55 then we can make anything".

These, and other, prototypes were never intended for sale. Some have appeared on the market because they were given to employees who later sold them. Others have appeared because some New Hartford prototypes that should have been destroyed when the factory closed and Guild production moved ended up in the market instead.

My guess is that there were less than 20 of the "debugging" D55 prototypes made. That is just a SWAG. Not quite 2 a month for a year. If they had 20 with similar specs they could have sold them as a Guild Special Run (GSR) since later they were willing to retool for runs as small as 20.

Note that the 2009 catalog lists D55's as production models so there was no reason to make a "debugging" prototype once production happened.

 

[Neal]

To put an even finer point on what Frono just added, my understanding is that the D-55 prototypes at New Hartford were being continuously refined in the run up to the Winter NAMM show in January of 2009. Guild wanted to make a splash at NAMM with the D-55, showcasing the skill of the builders at New Hartford, as operations were shifting from Tacoma (where exceptionally fine guitars had been made, some of my favorites).

 

[Phoenix 602]

So what would the period correct choice for the nut and saddle ? Is it bone or the Micarta?

 

[Phoenix 602]

That is a very interesting timeline which tells me this guitar sat somewhere in the in the case in the factory and /or sellers house between 2008 and 2014. Which is surprising cuz i would have expected some body cracks or some cold checking of sorts. My only problem is rt now with it is I cant get the relief out of the neck. And it only needs to go a couple mm or so.cuz the strings are buzzing in the middle of the fret board. But I was about to order a replacement saddle cuz it's plastic mold injected crap, and figured to get the matching nut as well even tho the one on it now is bone and orginal I believe. I couldn't find both on the guide website tho?

 

[geoguy]

Nuts & saddles can be purchased from Stew Mac, Luthiers Mercantle, or even eBay. You won't find them on the Guild website, as far as I know.

Are you saying that the neck has a back-bow, even with the truss rod loosened?

 

[kostask]

A back bowed neck is not commonly seen on acoustic steel string guitars. It was more common in the days before pretty much all guitars had truss rods.

Have you verified that this neck is indeed back bowed, with a proper ruler (i.e. that the actual neck is back bowed, and not that the frets are not higher in the middle of the neck)? Or are you going from the buzzing is happening in the middle of the neck?

If you are using light strings, try using medium strings for a while, which may add enough string tension to take out the back bow.

This can be a tricky repair, if it is indeed the neck itself and not the frets, and the medium strings don't work. You can try to get it heat pressed/slipping the fingerboard (you luthier needs the specific jig for this), where heat is applied to the neck, and a set of clamps along the length of the neck are used to try to pull the neck back to level. This is very dependent on how much free space is available with the truss rod loosened up (not applying any pressure). If that is unsufficient, then things can get very complicated very quickly, and can go all the way to replacement of the neck. In essence, the wood of the neck is creating the back bow. if that is the case, then more drastic measures have to be taken, including possible planing/sanding the fingerboard to get it flat depending on the amount of back bow and the thickness of the fingerboard, and if that is not enough, replacing of the entire neck.

The other thing to check is if any of the frets appear to have been replaced. If they have, and the tangs of the frets in the middle of the neck are thicker than the fret slots, that can create a back bow.

 

[fronobulax]

So what would the period correct choice for the nut and saddle ? Is it bone or the Micarta?

Production instruments from slightly later were bone nut and saddle.

 

[Phoenix 602]

Nuts & saddles can be purchased from Stew Mac, Luthiers Mercantle, or even eBay. You won't find them on the Guild website, as far as I know.

Are you saying that the neck has a back-bow, even with the truss rod loosened?

Yeah, but it's not even 2 mm I need. When the strings are close to taught it doesnt bring the head up quite enough for the strings to completely clear the middle of the fret board. Mind you, the closest I've gotten to full tension is a full step down from standard tuning. I'm still waiting for a bit more more hydration before I try to tune it all the way. I'm babying it cuz I'm worried about the top cracking on me.

 

[Heath]

IMO, I wouldn’t take any of these measurements and worrying about the neck until you can bring it up under full tension and know exactly where you’re at. You’re trying to solve problems that could change depending on hydration and bringing up to full standard tuning.

 

[Phoenix 602]

IMO, I wouldn’t take any of these measurements and worrying about the neck until you can bring it up under full tension and know exactly where you’re at. You’re trying to solve problems that could change depending on hydration and bringing up to full standard tuning.

I hear what your saying and I would normally agree, but when you know-you just know. Ya know. I m starting to lean more towards the shrinking of the fret grooves cuz the buzz starts about the 3 or 4th fret

 

[Heath]

I hear what your saying and I would normally agree, but when you know-you just know. Ya know. I m starting to lean more towards the shrinking of the fret grooves cuz the buzz starts about the 3 or 4th fret

You might know, but you won’t know just how much to know by. Under full tension it could be the 5th or 6th. Do what you want of course, you just might be making more work for yourself.

 

[Neal]

So, let me make sure I understand your situation, Phoenix. You can't get proper relief. I assume the truss rod is loosened all the way?

I have either owned or played many, many Guilds, and not once have I encountered one with back bow. I've played lots with a shallow neck angle, with the truss rod maxed out in the opposite direction.

Can you show us a few photos viewing down the neck, along with the saddle height, and the relief at the nut itself? Any or all could be involved in your issue, along with having a dry guitar with a soundboard that has lost its proper radius until it regains humidity.

 

[Heath]

That’s what I’m getting at. If it’s properly humidified and at tension, he might just be able to account for what he’s trying to do at the nut or saddle, or with the truss rod. Trying to do so before it’s properly humidified and/or at tension is just guess work, and also potentially making problems where there aren’t any.

You could account for a buzz at the 3rd or 4th now, and find under proper conditions it’s higher, or it would be non existent. You’re trying to fix an electrical problem in a car before you even get the engine back in.

 

[JohnW63]

The early stage of the neck development on this guitar has me wondering about how it was built. It's the only part of the guitar that isn't just like they started building them.

 

[Phoenix 602]

The early stage of the neck development on this guitar has me wondering about how it was built. It's the only part of the guitar that isn't just like they started building them.

You guys are right I'm just being impatient. It's a curse. @JohnW63, Can you elaborate on that point? How does it differ other than the back of the headstock profile?

 

[fronobulax]

The early stage of the neck development on this guitar has me wondering about how it was built. It's the only part of the guitar that isn't just like they started building them.

While your curiosity is noted isn't an "early stage of neck development" exactly what you would expect from an evolutionary model? If they knew exactly how to make the neck they wanted they would not have needed to make this guitar?

Perhaps there are things I am taking for granted because I talked to Darrin Wallace about New Hartford prototypes and am willing to apply my understanding to what was being done a couple of years earlier at New Hartford.

 

[JohnW63]

"Can you elaborate on that point?"

Check the neck pictures posted in response #41 on page 3.

 

[fronobulax]

"Can you elaborate on that point?"

Check the neck pictures posted in response #41 on page 3.

I wonder if there is an apples and oranges thing going on since once of the examples is of a 12 string. The headstock differences do indicate evolution, however.

 

[JohnW63]

Are you saying the two necks are not the OPs D-55 and a production D-55? That's how I read it. If the OPs D-55 neck has a proper shape, them my statement is invalid.

 

[Phoenix 602]

While your curiosity is noted isn't an "early stage of neck development" exactly what you would expect from an evolutionary model? If they knew exactly how to make the neck they wanted they would not have needed to make this guitar?

Perhaps there are things I am taking for granted because I talked to Darrin Wallace about New Hartford prototypes and am willing to apply my understanding to what was being done a couple of years earlier at New Hartford.

I wonder if there is an apples and oranges thing going on since once of the examples is of a 12 string. The headstock differences do indicate evolution, however.

Evolution? Valid point, yet the headstock logo would somewhat seem more of an early stage of development thing cuz why waste the abalone if they it was supposed to get destroyed? Maybe this isn't a prototype afterall maybe it IS an early early stage of development guitar? Or possibly the new rookie luthiers build that week? The only actual factory defect I can see is that mis aligned blue logo on the headstock.