Pricing

[Tony Burns]

Visiting Elderly is always fun and worth your time !

 

[Br1ck]

Shipping containers can take months to book. The business climate is so unsettled right now. The brands having Mexico plants are sitting pretty right now. Look at all the decent $1500 guitars Martin has to sell. But the real issue is going to be food. Drought will take it's toll. Do businesses really want to expand now, or continue to run a profit as is? I'm glad I'm not making decisions now. Just be glad you can buy a nice US built Guild at a decent price. Or you can play the ones you have.

 

[West R Lee]

Here's my take, and you can take my opinion and $10 and might get a Starbucks coffee. I've read the thread and it all seems so lacking in business acumen. So you buy a guitar company right here in the USA, but decide you want to borrow a bunch of money, invest that borrowed money and go the mass guitar production route in Asia? Not really having a clue as to whether or not those guitars will be palatable to the guitar buying public? Then, the USA Guilds having trouble keeping up with the few domestic models they do build and until they can keep up, you can forget any different models? That's essentially what I read above, and I'm sure all based on fact and it all makes sense.

Here's what doesn't make sense to me. There is a guitar manufacturer who builds guitars to order and will deliver pretty much anything you want. It takes a while.......5 months from build start, unless you order something quite a bit different or maybe a rare model, then it could take a couple of years. Music stores place orders for 40-50 guitars from this builder, and individual's orders are worked in. To be honest, the quality of these guitars is second to none. Their guitars are indeed expensive, but given price increases of everything, including guitars, the prices of this manufacturer are reasonable, given the time and effort that went into their guitars.

So my question is this. Why can't a company like Guild build guitars to order? I mean, instead of building 10,000 guitars and HOPE you sell them, why not fill orders through dealers and know you'll sell every one of them? Guild might not be able to do the volume here in the States with their American staff like a Martin or a Taylor, but they could build guitars in Collings numbers, and I'd bet under that structure and business model, with job security for years, they'd turn out a great product, players could order what they want in a guitar, and I'll bet Guild would thrive.

West

 

[Cougar]

So you buy a guitar company right here in the USA, but decide you want to borrow a bunch of money, invest that borrowed money and go the mass guitar production route in Asia?... Then, the USA Guilds having trouble keeping up with the few domestic models they do build....

How does the one (Asian production) have anything to do with the other (USA trouble keeping up)?

 

[GuildD40]

I recently joined the forum and just purchased my first guild. I’m extremely happy with my D-40 Traditional With both quality and Sound. After deciding on the model I started searching for a new one and could not find one any where. I was shocked that USA made models weren’t plentiful and seemed scarce. I called my regular salesman at Sweetwater an told him to let me know when the Guild shipments arrive and I can review the pictures and weight of all the units when you post them. He said we just found out we are getting two and they should be in any day. He explained that many of the USA made models are coming in one or two at a time and suggested I reserve it and I did. They we’re both immediately sold, one being mine. They are on back order again at Sweetwater. I know the foreign made have delays due to a lot of what’s going on but I figured USA made would have greater availability and be in stock. Boy was I wrong. I feel like I was lucky to have made that call to Sweetwater. Love my first Guild.

 

[fronobulax]

Why can't a company like Guild build guitars to order?

My take is that is just not the business model they chose to operate under. There are many goals in operating a business. The most common one is making the biggest possible profit. Less common, but feasible, are offering the best something that can be made and at a cost that the people making it can live comfortably. Other businesses have a product that someone thinks will change the world. And so on.

Before CMG bought Guild my understanding is that they had successfully offered a mass market line of classical guitars made overseas and an almost boutique line of classicals that were high end. I think they were made in USA but may have been made elsewhere. I understand for certain types of instruments, made in Spain is more highly sought than made in USA. So CMG buys Guild and they just expand on the business model that already works for them. They get low and high end acoustic guitars made in various places and they get viable electrics to boot.

So CMG has just chosen to operate Guild in a particular way that has worked for CMG in the past and that success did not need nor require custom builds to order.

To veer slightly, does the Collings model seem likely to "work" for the Guild brand? I'm going to say no if Guild's continued success depends upon selling all of the built to order instruments they can get orders for and make. I base that on my perception that the Guild brand still stands for "bang for the buck". So anyone who is willing to spend $5000+ on a Guild guitar is going to be constantly defending their decision. For people already comfortable with the brand and image there is still the fact that new Guilds compete with used Guilds (at the "higher end") and new Guilds don't always win. So a "build to order" Guild strategy is going to be, at best, a small portion of the revenue stream and something Guild does to mold the brand image and not just for profit.

IMO. YMMV.

 

[West R Lee]

My take is that is just not the business model they chose to operate under. There are many goals in operating a business. The most common one is making the biggest possible profit. Less common, but feasible, are offering the best something that can be made and at a cost that the people making it can live comfortably. Other businesses have a product that someone thinks will change the world. And so on.

Before CMG bought Guild my understanding is that they had successfully offered a mass market line of classical guitars made overseas and an almost boutique line of classicals that were high end. I think they were made in USA but may have been made elsewhere. I understand for certain types of instruments, made in Spain is more highly sought than made in USA. So CMG buys Guild and they just expand on the business model that already works for them. They get low and high end acoustic guitars made in various places and they get viable electrics to boot.

So CMG has just chosen to operate Guild in a particular way that has worked for CMG in the past and that success did not need nor require custom builds to order.

To veer slightly, does the Collings model seem likely to "work" for the Guild brand? I'm going to say no if Guild's continued success depends upon selling all of the built to order instruments they can get orders for and make. I base that on my perception that the Guild brand still stands for "bang for the buck". So anyone who is willing to spend $5000+ on a Guild guitar is going to be constantly defending their decision. For people already comfortable with the brand and image there is still the fact that new Guilds compete with used Guilds (at the "higher end") and new Guilds don't always win. So a "build to order" Guild strategy is going to be, at best, a small portion of the revenue stream and something Guild does to mold the brand image and not just for profit.

IMO. YMMV.

I actually do think the Collings business model would work well for Guild. I know throughout the years here someone expresses their wishes for their dream Guild from time to time. Even in this thread folks are wishing Guild made a true OM. I don't see any reason Guild couldn't do the same. In fact, if I could order a Guild dread and have it built to my specs, I'd buy a new one in a heartbeat. I think a lot of people would.

West

 

[West R Lee]

How does the one (Asian production) have anything to do with the other (USA trouble keeping up)?

A little overextended I'd say. Myself and others wish Guild had never started overseas production in the first place, but hey, it's their company. If they want to build guitars in Mexico, in Asia, or Lord knows where else, that's Guild's business, I just think they'd be better served by staying home and concentrating of the folks who made the Guild name what it is/was in the first place. Another poster mentioned his desire for OM's, but the only OM's Guild makes anymore are made in Asia if I'm not mistaken. I just think, and have thought for several years now that Guild is all over the map, and not really concentrating on or putting all their efforts into anything.

West

 

[plaidseason]

take

A little overextended I'd say. Myself and others wish Guild had never started overseas production in the first place, but hey, it's their company. If they want to build guitars in Mexico, in Asia, or Lord knows where else, that's Guild's business, I just think they'd be better served by staying home and concentrating of the folks who made the Guild name what it is/was in the first place. Another poster mentioned his desire for OM's, but the only OM's Guild makes anymore are made in Asia if I'm not mistaken. I just think, and have thought for several years now that Guild is all over the map, and not really concentrating on or putting all their efforts into anything.

West

I think the overseas thing created a branding identity crisis to some degree. Is Guild on the same level as Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Larrivee . . .or Eastman and Blueridge? Granted, some of the brands mentioned are making guitars in Mexico, but I think the perception of that is different than off-shore manufacturing. What's the difference between and M20 and an M120. We know. But many folks are probably confused.

Godin recently started making some models overseas and it freaked out folks . . . because their business model rests heavily on being the best deal in North American made guitars. Now there are literally Art & Lutherie parlor guitars made in Quebec and Art & Lutherie parlor guitars made in Asia. The pandemic shutdown forced their hand to a large degree, but to me, it's still a big hit on their branding.

I feel similar about Guild.

I don't think Guild needs an OM, they already have the F30, the F30r, the F30rl, the F30r-ls, etc. That's the brand. Paul Simon, Mississippi John Hurt, and Taj Majal all chose the F30 or other OM models

 

[Roland]

I was aware of Guild guitars but not really knowledge about them. So I was looking for a dreadnaught. I traded a Yamaha FSX800 concert size for a used Asian Guild D-240. It was a nice guitar for the price. But I got bitten by the Guild bug and traded the D-240 on a new D-20 three months later. I'm not sure that would have happened if not for the D-240. At least not that quickly. I don't think offering a less expensive Asian Guild to introduce people to the brand is an unwise business strategy.

 

[West R Lee]

I think the overseas thing created a branding identity crisis to some degree. Is Guild on the same level as Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Larrivee . . .or Eastman and Blueridge? Granted, some of the brands mentioned are making guitars in Mexico, but I think the perception of that is different than off-shore manufacturing. What's the difference between and M20 and an M120. We know. But many folks are probably confused.

Godin recently started making some models overseas and it freaked out folks . . . because their business model rests heavily on being the best deal in North American made guitars. Now there are literally Art & Lutherie parlor guitars made in Quebec and Art & Lutherie parlor guitars made in Asia. The pandemic shutdown forced their hand to a large degree, but to me, it's still a big hit on their branding.

I feel similar about Guild.

I don't think Guild needs an OM, they already have the F30, the F30r, the F30rl, the F30r-ls, etc. That's the brand. Paul Simon, Mississippi John Hurt, and Taj Majal all chose the F30 or other OM models

Oh for sure. And I still say the Collings' business model isn't a bad one to emulate. You never keep any inventory, establish orders up to a couple of years out, which essentially is job security. You know you've already sold every single piece you build. You'd establish retailers to take your orders, and also to order directly from you. There's no wasted motion and little wasted money. It's very efficient.

West

 

[plaidseason]

Oh for sure. And I still say the Collings business model isn't a bad one to emulate. You never keep any inventory, establish orders up to a couple of years out, which essentially is job security. You know you've already sold every single piece you build. You'd establish retailers to take your orders, and also to order directly from you. There's no wasted motion and little wasted money. It's very efficient.

West

Agreed!

 

[Br1ck]

If you order what you want and have to wait, you'll just find what you want in a store and buy it. Few will want to wait. We are a culture of instant gratification. Guild does build what you want. Every dealer orders what they know will sell, and some slow movers so they have a good selection, even if they linger. Hey Guild, make us some more slow movers will you? Not going to happen. When they have dealers tell them three or four people have asked about them this week they might think about it when they have excess D 20 or D 40 inventory.

 

[West R Lee]

If you order what you want and have to wait, you'll just find what you want in a store and buy it. Few will want to wait. We are a culture of instant gratification. Guild does build what you want. Every dealer orders what they know will sell, and some slow movers so they have a good selection, even if they linger. Hey Guild, make us some more slow movers will you? Not going to happen. When they have dealers tell them three or four people have asked about them this week they might think about it when they have excess D 20 or D 40 inventory.

Maybe, unless of course there's something very specific that you want, which was my case. Having said that, the one thing I do notice about the Collings' business model is that with so relatively few guitars on the new market, it sure puts a premium of the used Collings guitars, but again, provided you can find specifically what you want given the many options they offer.

Keep in mid that if you buy a Guild, you get that model. All D55's are the same design, as are all of any Guild model. Martin is essentially the same way. If you buy a D28, you get a rosewood dread with a Sitka top, if you order a Custom D28, you might get an Adirondack top. All Taylor models are virtually the same from what I've seen as well. But when you order a Collings guitar, you specify side and back woods (though some are standard with some models), you order bracing material, and have some latitude in bracing configuration. You choose finish, be it satin or varnish or nitro, and you can even do as I did and send a picture of a burst and have them recreate it. You specify saddle and nut width, tuners, you can choose top treatments (torrefied/standard), traditional (chunkier) or standard neck, the whole nine. So it's a very unique experience and about as close to building one (though I'd never attempt it and it's what they do) as I'll ever get. So as far as buying "used", or another just like it in a shop, it would be virtually impossible to find that exact guitar. And lotsa folks are VERY specific about what they want. I just don't know of another builder that does it this way, though Santa Cruz or Huss and Dalton might, I'm just not that familiar with them.

Again, I see no reason Guild couldn't eventually do something similar, and THAT would certainly reinvigorate my desire for a new Guild guitar.

These are the options offered with their D1, which is their basic mahogany dread. But you can essentially have it built any way you like. In fact, one Collings rep told me that every guitar they build could be considered "Custom". Click "Options" on this page.

Collings D1 | Dreadnought Acoustic Guitar

The official source of information for Collings custom handmade acoustic guitars, electric guitars, mandolins, ukuleles and archtop guitars. Setting the standard for quality and tone since 1973.

www.collingsguitars.com

West

 

[D30Man]

Well I bought a newer US made a few years - granted it was discounted heavily - but still over $2k. I am glad I did. I will say the better value is certainly in the used market as you can still come across a nice used Guild for a reasonable price.
I am never really in the market for new things anyway. New is overrated.

 

[walrus]

BTW, Tom Anderson Guitars does the same thing as Collings - you can buy one "off the rack", or you can special order one with choices on everything - neck radius, fret height, type of wood, type of pickups, etc., etc.

walrus

 

[Br1ck]

Every Kiesel electric guitar is custom made. Every model is a basic guitar, then you can upgrade to just about anything. Martin custom shop will make you just about anything, but won't do Authentic bracing. I have two Custom shop Martins, both bought used. Martin's wood binding is very nice, as is the Koa wedge on my D 35. Neither would I have paid for new. Remember, the D 55 was a special order back in the day. Pre 73 if I recall. Correct me if I have the year wrong.

 

[West R Lee]

My take is that is just not the business model they chose to operate under. There are many goals in operating a business. The most common one is making the biggest possible profit. Less common, but feasible, are offering the best something that can be made and at a cost that the people making it can live comfortably. Other businesses have a product that someone thinks will change the world. And so on.

Before CMG bought Guild my understanding is that they had successfully offered a mass market line of classical guitars made overseas and an almost boutique line of classicals that were high end. I think they were made in USA but may have been made elsewhere. I understand for certain types of instruments, made in Spain is more highly sought than made in USA. So CMG buys Guild and they just expand on the business model that already works for them. They get low and high end acoustic guitars made in various places and they get viable electrics to boot.

So CMG has just chosen to operate Guild in a particular way that has worked for CMG in the past and that success did not need nor require custom builds to order.

To veer slightly, does the Collings model seem likely to "work" for the Guild brand? I'm going to say no if Guild's continued success depends upon selling all of the built to order instruments they can get orders for and make. I base that on my perception that the Guild brand still stands for "bang for the buck". So anyone who is willing to spend $5000+ on a Guild guitar is going to be constantly defending their decision. For people already comfortable with the brand and image there is still the fact that new Guilds compete with used Guilds (at the "higher end") and new Guilds don't always win. So a "build to order" Guild strategy is going to be, at best, a small portion of the revenue stream and something Guild does to mold the brand image and not just for profit.

IMO. YMMV.

I hear what you're saying Frono, and I paid a bit north of $5000 for mine, but I don't see any need to try to rationalize that expense to anybody. In fact, at our age, for the first time I looked at that purchase like a once in a lifetime purchase, which it is. I really didn't take cost into account at all. I simply asked myself what options I've always wanted in a guitar and ordered it, with no regard to value, or resale, or what anybody thinks, other than me. And I'm not trying to sound snooty, it's just the way it was. I have no regrets, in fact it's more like a dream come true.

And if I could order my "custom" Guild? It would probably be something along the lines of a D40 with an Adirondack or German spruce top, Adirondack bracing forward shifted, without a tongue (popsickle) brace, in a light sunburst. If not that, maybe a Koa Guild dread. It's fun to dream.

West

 

[D30Man]

I think the overseas thing created a branding identity crisis to some degree. Is Guild on the same level as Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Larrivee . . .or Eastman and Blueridge?

I would put Eastman against any high volume manufacturer US, Mexico, Eastern Europe, Canada, Pac Rim, etc.. They are just frigging dynamite and in the last 6 or 8 years have only gotten better.. They used to be the best MIC guitars you could find. Now they are one of the best mass-produced you can find period. Granted if this were a debate, there is no factual evidence to back up my remarks. Just a strong opinion based on my experience.
I say this to say you are right Plaid. China's significant rise in quality craftsmanship in the world of guitars has certainly muddied the waters!

 

[Br1ck]

I have a differing view of Eastman. Granted they are the best of the imports, close but no cigar. But the Bourgeois line is going to up the ante. I know what it is like to own a brand now associated with cheaper imports.I know how I'd feel owning a Bourgeois and a flood of cheaper Bourgeois hits the market. I kid you not, I'm serious. It matters. Owning an Epiphone doesn't conger up fine guitars.