Old Versus New... Does it REALLY Matter?

[Frosty]

Can my ears tell the difference between a Gretch and a Gibson and a Guild? Can your ears tell the difference?

I think I could correctly distinguish between Gibson and Guild, listening blindfolded. I could guarantee it if the guitars used were as sonically distinctive as, say a J-50 and a D-55. Or J-200 and F-50.

Don't know about Gretsch acoustics... but I bet I could pick out the distinctive sound of a Filtertron!

 

[Spectrum13]

Since 2006 I have purchased 9 brand new guitars which are all wonderfull. The oldest guitar I ever owned was a 61 Strat which was better than my 87 reissue 62 but not as good as my 2008 partscaster. 1968 Goldtop was just as good as my 2006 Heritage 150, just not as valuable. Some of the older stuff develope expensive repair issues, like my 75 F50R required a neck set and binding replacement. Unless you are collecting or looking for mojo, there are plenty of quality new stuff being built. Sure the supply of wood will never be the same, and IMHO a BR Rosewood fingerboard is not the same thing as Indian rosewood but we still are in a golden age of guitars. Some of the same guys that built 59 Les Pauls are still in Kalamazoo building Heritage 150s the same way they built them back then in the same place on some of the same tools. One of the premier archtop builders of today, {plant manager in 1975 for Guild} has developed a line of light weight archtops in China which are handmade and quite affordable compaired to his Savanna built $18,000 line. There is plenty of good new stuff and not so good old stuff. Put a blindfold on and play it, that's when you will know what really matters.

 

[micmac]

Just to add my humble 5 cents about the magical "mojo " thing
I had a very interesting discussion with a friend violin maker who manufactures violins for concert performers of international level. I learned that a violin of high-quality (thinks thousands of Euros... ) must be much played before reaching a sufficient stage of maturity to be used in concert. And it is the artist who must himself work his new instrument during 2 or 3 years to lead it to develop the sound which is required.
If the Stradivarius are exceptional instruments, it is indeed because they were extremely indeed conceived, but it is also - and especially - because they were played by several generations of virtuosos. In fact, one has to note scientifically that wood (and other materials which constitutes the instrument) react to the vibrations until transforming their own molecular structure: except accident, a violin well designed, played by excellent musicians will become - from an objective point of view - an instrument of exceptional quality.
I do not know in which measurements one can apply this theory to the industrially manufactured guitars. But what some call " mojo " is perhaps a phenomenon which can be explained rationally: conjunction of a guitar designed well and played much by one ( or several ) musicians of very good level.

 

[NEONMOONY]

I got my mojo workin' but it just don't work on you.

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

Very intersting topic..
I also agree that in the end it's difficult to express an opinion...I currently own 17 guitars ( including 1 low quality acoustitic that sounds pretty good) ,the only true vintage instruments I have are the Guilds I bought on e-bay in the last 3 years: 2 Hoboken ('64 T100D and '66CE100D) 3 Westerly ( 2 vintage '80s acoustics and a recent Blues 90) .
For many years I ,till the Ebay advent, I was just playing some good guitars I could afford in the absurdly overpriced italian market.
My mid-nineties Gibson Les Paul Standard '59 reissue was my main guitar for ages,it's great, sounds superb,has a gorgeous flamed top and everything, but I honestly have to say that the same London guy I bought it from for a bargain price had for sale also an almost identical ORVILLE Les Paul made in Japan with an even more beautiful top and that sounded much better than the Gibson...I bought that Gibson only because I thought that the future value and resale price would have been better.
I also own a 2005 Japanese Gretsch Tennessean with Hilotron single coils that is absolutely perfect,and to me is a lot more comfortable than the 2 1963 and 1964 Gretsch Country Gentleman that the bass player in my band owns and I often happen to play for fun.
But ,on the other hand, a 1966 original Tennessean that I played years ago was so stunning comfortable,beautiful and had the ultimate Gretsch tone that after playing it I was convinced to buy that model....
I love dearly my 2 Rickenbackers ,a fantastic 2005 360 that I bought new, and a used 1997 620, never played a vintage Rick to compare it to my new ones though..
The same I could say for my other guitars ,Epi Casino, Danelectro, wonderful Telecaster with texas special pickups...
The vintage '60s Guilds I have are anyway something special, they're both in cosmetical good shape but they neverthelless ooze that mojo..the way the finish had aged shows the beauty of the woods in a different way from modern guitars, the brazilian rosewood of the fretboards is beautiful, they feel like they already lived a life..and ,most importantly ..they sound superb, that T100d is supposed to be a cheaper Starfire but those cheap and almost unknown single coils are some of the best pickups I ever played for my taste. I admit that the Guilds are the only top quality VINTAGE guitars I can afford, and why vintage 60s guitars that good are so cheap ( I got them both for a lot less than $1000 each..) is still a mistery to me ...compared to the incredible prices reached by vintage Gibsons and Fenders..could it be that those Guilds prices are the ACTUAL NORMAL prices that a good vintage instrument should cost and the other brands are totally overvalued ,mostly because of hype,myths and other non-musical reasons ?
I guess it's no coincidence that all the 14 guitars I bought on Ebay came with no issues,no defects, all perfectly playable ( except for the slim neck of my D50) for me...vintage or new guitars I bought didn't hide bad surprises even if I was forced to buy them online,with no chance to play and judge them before....was I particularly lucky?... maybe, but I also think that this means the average quality and build construction and crafting is pretty good nowdays like it was for those fabled '60s instruments that,as pointed out by others and by some of my direct experiences too, sometimes are not totally up to what you might expect from their market value...

 

[Jack FFR1846]

I think the answer is both yes and no.

I came back into guitars almost 3 years ago after almost 30 years of absense. Back in the day, an old guitar was just a cheap, used guitar. Today, they're "vintage". I played a friend's early 80's strat (vintage to some people....and especially those selling on eBay and Craigslist) and the thing was total crap. I have $100 guitars (fairly new) that could wipe the floor with that strat. So, I guess my point is that vintage....in and of itself....is not a marque of quality.

Ok...on to other points. There are builders today who can and do put out outstanding products. Some are very expensive, and some are not. Mass production where appropriate and hand attention where appropriate can result in outstanding products. Blindly going full machine made or stubbornly holding on to fully hand produced result in crap for the former (did I say Squier?) or overly expensive.....as a custom luthier might charge. In between, doing the appropriate things in the right places are a number of good companies who....in my opinion....make products better than the old stuff. Musicman, Collings, Godin are the first who come to mind. Mind you....the pricing is a pretty wide spectrum just with those 3 names, but I would rather have a new guitar from any of them than a 40 year old guitar from just about any manufacturer. Consistancy seems to be key and for a manufacturer to keep a product consistantly good is what keeps them alive these days.

Are there good old guitars out there? Well sure. I do still look at them as old guitars that will likely need the pots and switches replaced and a bit of care put into them for them to function as usable instruments but there are certainly good ones out there.

I'm not completely sentimental......my 69 Guild would be the one I'd keep if I were forced to sell all but 1 guitar. It's been with me since new.

 

[firestar]

Sorry to jump into discussion without an introduction.....
Long term Guild enthusiast from England who finally got a Starfire at the start of the year....it is a Corona built sunburst Starfire 4
and if memory serves 2003/2004 infact purchased from a LTG forum member and said guitar has been pictured on the site.
Anyway along with this fine Guild semi-acoustic had the good fortune to find many years ago a rare 1993/1994 Nashville built
Epiphone Riviera which is one of 250 made by the Gibson custom shop.....both were one owner and in as new condition.
Both are great guitars and keepers and playing through a recently purchased Valvetrain 205 which is a 1955 Tweed Princeton (5F2a) all
is well with the hobby.
As perhaps can be gathered from the above I am a fan of the semi-acoustic guitar and both are fine instruments and while the Epiphone has true
greatness tend to play the Guild most and it is just a class instrument.....some say the last of the Starfires were excellent guitars but were let down
by the pickups as the Fender made HB1 is not as good as the legendary Guild HB1.....got to say while the TV Jones "Classic" Filtertron looks fun
the TV Jones Super'tron as originally found only on top of the line Gretsch models and inspired by the Charlie Christian pickups is tempting.....
Another quality semi-acoustic and complete original the Rickenbacker is as good as ever although many swop out the high gains for after-market
"toaster" pickups..... the only solid body guitar to interest me is the telecaster and the AVRI52 and AVRI62 are said to be fine instruments as well.
Now to the point....
The original records were not made with vintage guitars they were made with new guitars and amps......often the standard factory production models of the day.....furthermore a guitar from the eighties or early nineties is now as old as an instrument as the 15 to 25 year old guitars first called vintage in the 1970's.
So a ten year old AVRI52 telecaster through a five year old Victoria Deluxe might sound similar to finding an original blackguard and 5E3 in the early sixties while a new AVRI62 custom telecaster through a Headstrong Princeton Reverb/JMI AC15 would be considered new gear just out in the early sixties.
Quality instruments and amps are still being made today and many indifferent instruments with issues overpriced simply because they are old.
The last of the Guild Starfire semi-acoustics made and the Rickenbacker semi-acoustics are quality instruments while the AVRI Fender guitars are highly regarded and the 52 telecaster reissue in particular has a big following and the early ones themselves are considered almost vintage.
On a final thought if the past is another country and old guitars are somehow considered museum artefacts from a lost world that todays guitars
can only hope to copy were not the tele/strat/SG and the slimline semi-acoustic something of "the shock of the new" back in the day such that in
an existential way mojo comes from the future......
Sorry for the above but day two of giving up smoking and mind like a jumble sale ask for charity and kindness.

 

[krysh]

anyway, welcome firestar,
and congrats to your great taste in amps and instruments.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[chazmo]

Sorry to jump into discussion without an introduction......
Sorry for the above but day two of giving up smoking and mind like a jumble sale ask for charity and kindness.

Firestar, welcome to LTG! Great first post, but I'm sure I won't be the first to say.... PICTURES!!!!

Congrats on giving up smoking. Stick with it. We'll try to keep you on the wagon if you start slipping!!! (that applies to vintage Guilds as much as cigarettes)

 

[Sarah93003]

I'm late to this party as well! I think there are Collectors, Players, and the In-Betweeners. I'm an in-betweener. I buy guitars to play and therefore all of mine get played and they all go out of the house for gigging or otherwise. For me the most important considerations are: 1) the sound/tone, 2) playability, 3) looks and style. For most of my adulthood I've been a Guild and Gibson player. But, I've recently crossed the fence to Gretsch and after a 20 year search found the Mosrite Celebrity I was searching for. My main players are a 2004 Gretsch Annie, in Bamboo Yellow, and my 1966 Mosrite Celebrity. The Mosrite is hands down the best neck I've ever played. I love the zero fret and speed frets and effortless action. It also has an awesome sound with the hot pickups. The Annie has TV Jones classics and is also a wonderful guitar to play. The 1961 Guild X50 I have for sentimental reasons and probably would not buy one otherwise. For electrics, I'm more drawn to the Starfires and X500. I think Guild makes the best 12 strings available. My Gretsch G400 is the best 6 string acoustic I've ever played.

I do like vintage guitars but it would still have to be a very good price/value before I would buy it. In another 40 years people will be collecting PRS's, LTD's, etc and calling them vintage.

 

[fronobulax]

Sorry to jump into discussion without an introduction.....

No problem. Welcome and post often.

 

[valcotone]

The only ultra-vintage guitar I've ever played was a '58 Tele- and it was quite good. I owned and sold a '66 Rickenbacker 12 string which was a really superb guitar, even after decades.

Those are interesting comments above... and sort of frame your question below. There are lots of fine vintage guitars, and some not so fine as well. Some were made well, and have aged well... while others neither. IMO, a larger sample set might give you a different opinion on vintage guitars, maybe.

So, I'd really like to hear from the guys who love the vintage boxes- seriously - WHAT AM I MISSING?

This is a good question, and often asked. The answer ranges between 'nothing' and 'everything' depending on who's involved in the conversation. :lol:

To me, it depends on the individual involved, and the context in which the instrument would be used and/or enjoyed.

In my case, I'm a player and a collector at heart so I love to get into the details of something I'm interested in... and as others have indicated the earlier pieces are often more attractive due to the intangibles that John mentioned. I have gigged with all my guitars/amps and enjoy how the inspire in different ways - that's key for me. Every once in a while you pick up an older guitar or amp and play through it and go - THAT'S IT! For me, that doesn't happen as often with new stuff.

There some several older instruments I enjoy that I don't believe have been recreated in the modern era to the same level of playability or quality of tone.... my '54 Guild X-175 with Franz pickups (nothing like them), and Harmony H44 Stratotone and H62 archtop (nothing like them either!). Don't get me started on amps... I love the old Tweed Fenders, Gibsons, and especially Valco amps - in some cases there are no modern repros that match their sounds.

I should note, my comments here are in context to how I use them (live with my band and at home) for the music I play (blues). I have newer guitars too and enjoy them, and honestly could still make the music I do just fine with them... but damn, it wouldn't be as FUN!

So, if you're happy with newer instruments - that's cool! Don't worry what other people do.

Just my thoughts...

 

[Walter Broes]

There some several older instruments I enjoy that I don't believe have been recreated in the modern era to the same level of playability or quality of tone.... my '54 Guild X-175 with Franz pickups (nothing like them), and Harmony H44 Stratotone and H62 archtop (nothing like them either!). Don't get me started on amps... I love the old Tweed Fenders, Gibsons, and especially Valco amps - in some cases there are no modern repros that match their sounds.

Amen!!

 

[rhcole]

Interesting that you guys like old Harmonys. When I was younger, they were snubbed, and I never played any that I thought were particularly good guitars. I see the reissues and think they look kinda' cool but still remember their moderate playability and so-so sound.

It's like next we'll see vintage Kents, or something.

 

[valcotone]

Well, I suppose vintage Harmony guitars are like anything... there are good ones and there are bad ones. They did make some fantastic guitars in the 50's with set necks or neck-through designs that are killer instruments. Here are a couple of those in the hands of some tasteful players:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBYBqAo9JJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dJwtzcb-dY

 

[taabru45]

I'm gonna throw these into the mix....great stuff. Steffan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7yhdxLYBT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRuuP7YoH6o

 

[jimistone]

I have a vintage strat...just got rid of a new one a year or so ago. I have a new les paul and got rid of a vntage one a few years ago. I had a vintage gretch country gentleman when I was a teen ager...the pickups were so anemic that I roudered out the pickup holes and slapped a set og gibson humbuckers in (just call me "the butcher"). The gretch sound alot better with the huimbuckers in it but the pots all crackled the switches shorted, and the bridge wasn't even attatched to the top of the guitar. The Gretch, in un-butchered shape, is a collectors peice now...but ANYTHJING would have been better than that shabby peice of crap IMO at the time. My newer les paul is better than the old one that I moved on down the line. My vintage strat is by far the best playing and sounding strat I have ever had the pleasure of holding in my hands...new ones aren't even in the same universe as that old strat.

I don't care if it's new or old...I just care if it turns me on when I play it.

I think some of the mojo of old vintage peices is the pattern of wear....especially the neck. Any tackyness, sharp fret edge, or squared fretbord corner have be smoothed out by years of repeated play. Anything that would be the least bit uncomfortable has literally been rubbed out.
That type of subtle wear cannot be duplicated with a quickie "relicing" process IMO. The artificial relics don't feel the same as the real relics do.
just my 2 cents.

 

[adorshki]

That type of subtle wear cannot be duplicated with a quickie "relicing" process IMO. The artificial relics don't feel the same as the real relics do.
just my 2 cents.[/quote
Yeah, anybody remember "stonewashed jeans"? What a crock! :lol:

 

[southernGuild]

:lol: Good one Al,....... a CROCK INDEED!!! now i can SEE them for what they ARE....."Stonewashed guitars"! :lol: the lasting craze! 8)

 

[adorshki]

By Golly John y'oughta patent that brand name before someone beats ya out! Wish I'd thought of it! "Stonewashed Guitars"! It's got a real "Ring" to it! :lol: