OK, OK, NGD is here!

[GAD]

So I'm the guy that's always ragging on the Fender HB1 pickups, but even though my X170T was hollow and had a coil-split, it never sounded like this. This guitar can almost get that quacky mid-position Strat sound that I love so much.

I have to say that after lowering the pickups a bit, I'm digging the tone from the guitar when it's in single-coil mode. Especially though my little champ clone that I built.

Of course now the question is would it sound even better with better pickups? LOL.

It's a very strange combination. It's like playing a Les Paul with a fat *** that has Strat pickups in it while sort of behaving like a Starfire. You know - that kind of sound. :wink-new:

I say it has a fat *** because it's oddly balanced while sitting. Any other Nightbird owners agree with that? The guitar is surprisingly heavy for having so much air in it, too - it weighs 8lbs 15oz which is more than my Historic R9 weighed (Historics are solid - no weight relief or chambers), but I suppose that could be due to the larger lower bout on this guitar.

BTW all of the balance issues are moot while standing.

The more I play it, the more I dig it. In some ways, it reminds me of the Bluesbird I owned. It's got the same neck profile, or at least it's very similar, and the same cool hollowness to the tone, but it's brighter with the single coil option and the ebony board. It's also much prettier.

Hans has been his normal excellent help, and said something to the effect that the serial number is from 1988, but the guitar was likely built some time thereafter. The electronics really look stock to me - the wiring is impeccable, but those pickups didn't exist in the late 80s. Hell, I don't think they existed until the mid-late 90s. If the electronics were swapped, it was done by a pro.

At this point I'm actually leaning towards leaving it the way it is. On the off chance that it is original, I'd like to keep it that way. If I put in vintage HB1s, I lose the middle-position quack unless I put in two bridge pickups. If I have these pickups rewound, then I'll have to violate the nice wiring, which I'm willing to do for a dramatic increase in tone quality. I find myself conflicted since the pickups I've never liked are sounding good.

Edit - LOL at censors...

 

[cc_mac]

Sadly, neither. Looks like quite a bit of it is not original, but the work appears to have been done very well.

That's crafty - on the bass (left side in the pickup above) someone has grafted (soldered) a small metal plate onto the foot of the pickup to allow for the use of the more widely spaced pickup adjustment screws of the Guild HB1 and Seymour Duncan SD-1 pickup rings. It looks to have been cleanly done and with intent. Have you ever seen this before? Are these pickups the size of Guild HB1 or Fender HB1? This is most curious as it was seemingly possible to spot a set of Fender HB1 based on the spacing of the adjustment screws without pulling them out.

That's an amazing looking instrument and I'm glad you are enjoying those pickups. I am not familiar with this model. Are both pickups setup for coil split?

 

[GAD]

That's crafty - on the bass (left side in the pickup above) someone has grafted (soldered) a small metal plate onto the foot of the pickup to allow for the use of the more widely spaced pickup adjustment screws of the Guild HB1 and Seymour Duncan SD-1 pickup rings. It looks to have been cleanly done and with intent. Have you ever seen this before? Are these pickups the size of Guild HB1 or Fender HB1? This is most curious as it was seemingly possible to spot a set of Fender HB1 based on the spacing of the adjustment screws without pulling them out.

That's an amazing looking instrument and I'm glad you are enjoying those pickups. I am not familiar with this model. Are both pickups setup for coil split?

I have seen something similar where an adapter was put in like that, but never that well. If this stuff isn't original, and it seems very unlikely that it is, then the work was done by a real pro.

The pickups measure the same as Fender-HB1s, which is what they appear to be. That would mean (in my pea brain, anyway) that the rings came from an SD1 set since the HB1 rings would have more space around the pickups while these fit perfectly.

It has taught me that the the old "look at the screw spacing" trick is not fool-proof.

The pickups sound much better split than they do in humbucker mode, which I find fascinating. They sound much better since I lowered them, but they still don't have the articulation that I get from boutiques or even HB1s.

Yes - both pickups split, which is why I get that most satisfying middle-position sound when they're both split. The picture you quoted is the neck pickup, and you can see that there are four connections (red/white/black/green) where a normal humbucker would have only two wires (plus ground shield). All of the red/white wires connect to the push/pull pot which then splits both pickups:

 

[hansmoust]

That's crafty - on the bass (left side in the pickup above) someone has grafted (soldered) a small metal plate onto the foot of the pickup to allow for the use of the more widely spaced pickup adjustment screws of the Guild HB1 and Seymour Duncan SD-1 pickup rings. It looks to have been cleanly done and with intent. Have you ever seen this before?

That has been the 'traditional' way for Guild to mount Gibson-size humbuckers in their own HB-1 mounting rings since DiMarzio pickups were introduced on Guild guitars during the second half of the '70s.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[drc]

So its the '88 serial number (which totally makes no sense to me, but anyways) that is making you think its not all factory original? I'm confused.

 

[GAD]

That has been the 'traditional' way for Guild to mount Gibson-size humbuckers in their own HB-1 mounting rings since DiMarzio pickups were introduced on Guild guitars during the second half of the '70s.
l

That's where I saw it! In the Dimarzios in my S300A-D.

Thanks - that was bugging me.

 

[GAD]

So its the '88 serial number (which totally makes no sense to me, but anyways) that is making you think its not all factory original? I'm confused.

Well, the Fender-HB1s didn't exist until, what, the late 90s?

Unless this was found, or assembled, or reconstituted from pulp at the Guild factory in the late-90s, I don't see how it could be all original. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

 

[drc]

I'd like to think that its all original. LOL So stop looking for reason to think otherwise!

Lets just say (until proven otherwise) that it left the Guild factory this way??

Maybe it is such an awesome guitar that a few of the old employees decided to keep it around the shop and over the years it was modified?? And maybe those employees eventually quite, got fired, etc.. and the new employees didn't realize what they had so they decided to move it?

OR

It was a Guild employees personal guitar that just got modified by the factory over the years?

 

[GAD]

I'd like to think that its all original. LOL So stop looking for reason to think otherwise!

Lets just say (until proven otherwise) that it left the Guild factory this way??

Maybe it is such an awesome guitar that a few of the old employees decided to keep it around the shop and over the years it was modified?? And maybe those employees eventually quite, got fired, etc.. and the new employees didn't realize what they had so they decided to move it?

OR

It was a Guild employees personal guitar that just got modified by the factory over the years?

That would certainly make for a cool history. I don't think we'll ever know.

Also, as Hans pointed out to me, the bridge and tailpiece aren't normal Nightbird fare. Here's a pic from the Internet where you can zoom in and see just how different the normal Nightbird parts are:

There is not a whole lot of info out there about these Nightbirds, and even fewer pictures. The closest I've found to my Nightbird is actually the one on the WesterlyGuild page:

It's got the same tuners, the same smaller fret markers, the same switch layout, and it's the only other Nightbird I've found a picture of with (what appear to be) HB1 pickups. The strap pegs are different, as are the bridge and tailpiece. If it wasn't for the flamed maple as opposed to quilted, I'd think this was the guitar in my possession.

 

[Zelja]

GAD do you know the DC resistance of the Fender HB-1s - are they pretty high compared to an proper HB-1 (6.9k to 7.4k on most I've measured)? If you have a multimeter you can easily measure it while still in the guitar by plugging a chord in, selecting one pickup, all vol & tone controls on max & then measuring across the tip & sleeve of the other end of the chord plug. It'll read a few % less than if it was out of the circuit but close enough for rock'n'roll. Although a far from perfect indicator, the DC resistance can give you an idea of the character of the pickup - more turns means more DC resistance and a fatter sounding pickup (& fatter can be come muddier, especially in humbuckers).

A better indication is inductance, measured in Henries, if you have a meter which measures that. HB-1s seem to measure around 4 Henries outside of the guitar (3.7 when in circuit with the method described above). Other standard humbuckers often measure at 5 Henries or greater. This is what makes our beloved HB-1s the clearest sounding standard construction (i.e. bar magnets rather than pole piece magnet) humbuckers around.

Now there could be something you can do to make those pickups clearer without changing the split tone which you are OK with. You can try to employ a permanent "partial split" on the same coil which is getting taken out of the circuit when the coil tap switch is activated . A "partial tap" is like a "Variable tap" (explained here: http://www.smitspickups.com/coiltapping.htm ) but with a resistor instead of a pot. What it does is that it only partially shorts out the coil so you effectively have say only 60% of the output of that coil added with the full output of the other coil. So overall less output & brighter than the standard arrangement but fuller than the total split.

Now you can wire the resistor in permanently (across the same split switch terminals) so it always has an effect & becomes the defacto humbucker mode. When you activate the split switch the whole coil is bypassed & it's exactly the sound you have now when the switch is activated. You can also get funky by adding caps etc but this may be the simplest way & the cost is a 5 cent resistor & some time. It may or may not work for you & the downside would be a bit more noise (as you are unbalancing the two coils & the humbucking effect is reduced) but still less than when the coil is split.

The value of the resistor is a taste thing. I would try from 1k to 10k & you may prefer different values for the neck & bridge pickups. Best bet maybe to temporarily wire up two lugs of a 10K pot (with crocodile clips so no soldering is involved) and turn it to taste. Then take it out of the circuit, measure the resistance & select the closest available resistor. Or just buy a bunch of resistors and try them one by one using the crocodile clips. The lower the value the more affect it will have (closer to a short circuit).

Or you can get some different pickups...

 

[GAD]

You know what, here's another thing that's been bugging me.

Here is a Fender HB1 from my 2001 Starfire:

And here is the same type of pickup in my X170T:

Now here's the Fender HB1 in my Nightbird:

The X170T and the Starfire both had the same grey wiring (which means next to nothing I'd think), and more importantly to a guy like me, they're both sort of haphazardly wired - the way I've seen every other guitar pickup wired pretty much ever. Now look at the wiring on the Nightbird - it's perfect. It's neatly laid out, the cable is properly strain relieved into the provided point on the pickup, there's additional shrink tubing for the strain relief, and there is no wasted slack. The work is impeccable. Almost like custom-shop or boutique luthier work. The neat wiring is the main reason I don't want to mess with it!

 

[SFIV1967]

That's crafty - on the bass (left side in the pickup above) someone has grafted (soldered) a small metal plate onto the foot of the pickup

@GAD: That's neither soldered nor welded, that's just one screw in the middle that was cut, or? Just curious.

But both techniques were used, here are a few pictures (copyright Ken Nash ) showing such variations:

Seymour Duncan '59 set and JB set:

DiMarzio SDS1 (?) with factory Guild 3 hole mount:

Those pictures at least again proof that the pickup version in GAD's Nightbird has an extremely well done extension of the mounting holes mounted compared to those above.

Ken also shows a nice picture of an open SD made HB-1 which I had not seen before:

Ralf

 

[GAD]

Turns out the Nightbird pic from Westerly's site is from the 1990 catalog: http://www.acousticmusic.org/userfiles/file/pdfs/historical-data/Guild/Guild 1990 Catalog.pdf

Great pickup info Ralf!

Here's a pic from the Bluesbird I used to have that had Seth-Lovers in it (not stock). I'm sure the previous owner just used the pieces that were there, but it's another example of a screw assembly. Next time I change the strings on the Nightbird I'll pull thepickups again and get better pics of the assembly.

 

[GAD]

GAD do you know the DC resistance of the Fender HB-1s - are they pretty high compared to an proper HB-1 (6.9k to 7.4k on most I've measured)? If you have a multimeter you can easily measure it while still in the guitar by plugging a chord in, selecting one pickup, all vol & tone controls on max & then measuring across the tip & sleeve of the other end of the chord plug. It'll read a few % less than if it was out of the circuit but close enough for rock'n'roll. Although a far from perfect indicator, the DC resistance can give you an idea of the character of the pickup - more turns means more DC resistance and a fatter sounding pickup (& fatter can be come muddier, especially in humbuckers).

A better indication is inductance, measured in Henries, if you have a meter which measures that. HB-1s seem to measure around 4 Henries outside of the guitar (3.7 when in circuit with the method described above). Other standard humbuckers often measure at 5 Henries or greater. This is what makes our beloved HB-1s the clearest sounding standard construction (i.e. bar magnets rather than pole piece magnet) humbuckers around.

Now there could be something you can do to make those pickups clearer without changing the split tone which you are OK with. You can try to employ a permanent "partial split" on the same coil which is getting taken out of the circuit when the coil tap switch is activated . A "partial tap" is like a "Variable tap" (explained here: http://www.smitspickups.com/coiltapping.htm ) but with a resistor instead of a pot. What it does is that it only partially shorts out the coil so you effectively have say only 60% of the output of that coil added with the full output of the other coil. So overall less output & brighter than the standard arrangement but fuller than the total split.

Now you can wire the resistor in permanently (across the same split switch terminals) so it always has an effect & becomes the defacto humbucker mode. When you activate the split switch the whole coil is bypassed & it's exactly the sound you have now when the switch is activated. You can also get funky by adding caps etc but this may be the simplest way & the cost is a 5 cent resistor & some time. It may or may not work for you & the downside would be a bit more noise (as you are unbalancing the two coils & the humbucking effect is reduced) but still less than when the coil is split.

The value of the resistor is a taste thing. I would try from 1k to 10k & you may prefer different values for the neck & bridge pickups. Best bet maybe to temporarily wire up two lugs of a 10K pot (with crocodile clips so no soldering is involved) and turn it to taste. Then take it out of the circuit, measure the resistance & select the closest available resistor. Or just buy a bunch of resistors and try them one by one using the crocodile clips. The lower the value the more affect it will have (closer to a short circuit).

Or you can get some different pickups...

Thanks for the suggestion, and sorry I didn't answer earlier.

Might be worth considering. I'm still not entirely sure what I'll do with this guitar. I like the split sound so much I've just not been using the humbucker mode. Whoever built it must have felt the same way because the "in" position on the tone push/pul is single-coil, while the "out" position is humbuckers. That's the opposite of how I've ever wired it because I usually default to humbucking. This guitar sounds so much better on single-coil mode that I'm not sure I'd ever need to change it.

I should make some recordings...

 

[jcwu]

I should make some recordings...

Yes please!

I'm curious - is the push-pull for both pickups at the same time? Or is there a push-pull for each pickup?

 

[GAD]

Yes please!

I'm curious - is the push-pull for both pickups at the same time? Or is there a push-pull for each pickup?

The push-pull is only present on the tone knob, and it affects both pickups at once. These are the possible combinations given the controls:

Tone pot out:
Bridge - Humbucker
Both - Humbucker
Both - Umbucker inverted phase (mini toggle)
Neck - Humbucker

Tone pot in:
Bridge - Single
Both - Single
Both - Single inverted phase (mini toggle)
Neck - Single

Really, you don't need multiple push/pulls unless you wanted a middle position with one split pickup and one humbucking.

 

[jcwu]

Really, you don't need multiple push/pulls unless you wanted a middle position with one split pickup and one humbucking.

...and that's the reason I asked! I was curious if you had a combo where you had one single coil and one humbucker, and how that sounded.

 

[GAD]

...and that's the reason I asked! I was curious if you had a combo where you had one single coil and one humbucker, and how that sounded.

Ahh.

I would imagine that you'd still get hum with an odd number of coils, but I have to wonder if there would be any difference in sound.